Getting on the 9 train, or not

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Comments

  • Oso3D said:

    The other important thing about a navel (or any other stuff) is making it part of the texture. It doesn't have to have all the geometry if it LOOKS like a navel.

    If I were designing my own detailed navel, what I'd do is make a HD sculpt (which anyone can do), use it to make a basic resolution navel (projection in Zbrush, Blender has shrink wrap, I believe), then bake the difference as normals (there are a bunch of applications that will do this).

    If you are making your own skin, use the HD sculpt as the model for painting it.

    The same approach works for other HD stuff. Anyone CAN work with HD sculpting, you just have to do it in the more standard way, where the HD detail is baked into the texture.

     

    They aren't comprehending what you're saying, my friend. 

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,011

    At a certain point you speak to the quiet reader who may be confused by some assertions.

     

  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 2,129

    Oso3D said:

    At a certain point you speak to the quiet reader who may be confused by some assertions.

     

    +1, though I'm probably not listed under the quiet section :)


    For my use, the only advantage G9/V9 has over any previous figure series are it's vastly improved textures.

    Once that goes away, it makes G9 irrelevant.

    I really don't care if it can be morphed into a suitcase or an airplane in a 3rd party modeler app.I'm not that type of user.

    I want to be able to use my  favorite clothes on it, which I can for the most part as most of them are dforce anyway.

    Shoes and hair of course are problematic just like every other figure series, so those things are not a big deal to me.I've been there before.

     

    If the PAs can deliver characters I find attractive using those fantastic looking textures (not reuse the same one obviously); I'll buy them.

    Currently just waiting for a PA to deliver what I'm looking for.

  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 2,333

    Mada said:

    Timbales said:

    I'm not going to render a checkboard skin either. Thank you. 

    OK here's an image with the shoulder bend down. It looks like you don't have joint correctives turned on.

    edit : added an image with the shoulder bend down and a male skin, as well as a clothing item with both shoulders bend down and breast gone morph. I do use the checkerboard texture because it shows up problems right away.

    I am specifically talking about the creases and shapes that are still visible under the breast, not the shoulders. And they get even worse when you dial in the male shape. 

    If I'm the only person in the world that cares that these are there, that's fine. But it's starting to feel like I'm being gaslit and being told they aren't there when they clearly are, and that I'm at fault for not thinking this is a good look. 

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  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 2,129

    Timbales said:

    Mada said:

    Timbales said:

    I'm not going to render a checkboard skin either. Thank you. 

    OK here's an image with the shoulder bend down. It looks like you don't have joint correctives turned on.

    edit : added an image with the shoulder bend down and a male skin, as well as a clothing item with both shoulders bend down and breast gone morph. I do use the checkerboard texture because it shows up problems right away.

    I am specifically talking about the creases and shapes that are still visible under the breast, not the shoulders. And they get even worse when you dial in the male shape. 

    If I'm the only person in the world that cares that these are there, that's fine. But it's starting to feel like I'm being gaslit and being told they aren't there when they clearly are, and that I'm at fault for not thinking this is a good look. 

     

    No, you're not.

    If it becomes a permanent feature for the G9 series it's going to impact character sales, at least for me anyway.

    Let's hope the PA's or devs decide it's neither attractive nor desirable and do something to fix it.

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 6,908

    Padone said:

    @Mattymanx @Oso3D @kyoto_kid

    I'm not a fan of autofit because usually doesn't work fine, but since everyone is talking about the incredible autofit features of G9 then I tried. Below there's the simple G2 Persian Top on G9, the result is not impressive it seems fine until you pose, then you see the bracelet goes to the elbow in G9 while it should stay above as in G2. This could be a problem or not depending on the outfit.

     I think everyone will agree with you that autofit is NOT perfect.  Its never going to give you a perfect fit out of the box but its a far better solution then anything we had before the days of Genesis figures.  For any outfit to have a much better fit to any figure other than the one it was made for, it would need to have its weight maps adjusted to accomodate the different figure. I have that same outfit and I get the same results as you do but I also get those same resutls on Genesis 3 Female.  I also saw issues with outfits that use rigid followers as they dont sit in place when fitted to G9.  But overall from my experiance with it, its still working better out of the box then with previous generations so far.

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,212

    PerttiA said:

    RAMWolff said:

    So with this new mesh set to be "inbetween" folks will be able to make small breasted women, trans folks, little kids and all that with no issues with how the clothing fits.  That's the idea any ways.  I've read this thread and a couple of others and folks seem so upset that nipples and navels are now just a morph and hi def map.  SO WHAT!  I think what it boils down to is folks don't like change but are intrigued enough to check it out and then complain about X Y & Z until they get used to the new way!  LOL Cracks me up! 

    So, what is the method you use to make your own morphs to the G9 pokies and navel?

    Well I'm not a PA here, I work mostly in Poser but have developed for DS in the past and Genesis 9 is wooing me back to the fold as I really really loved Genesis 1 for the male/female ease of use.  I'm a ZBrush person so for me making nips and navels are no big deal and then just add in a Normal map and you have what you need.  Now the PA's here have access to other tools that make the fine details really pop out like those little bulgy bits on the areola's of both males and femals.  I MIGHT be able to do that with a really hi def Normal map but I've not tried as of yet.  

    All in all I'm very happy that DAZ has decided to go down this road again with all the improvements that have come along under the hood in DAZ Studio.  So this new Genesis will have a better chance of becoming the norm for the future of figures for this platform.  Who knows, with DAZ they may decide to go back to split figures for the 10th iteration of Genesis!  LOL  Now now, no throwing rotten fruit at me, I've been around A LONG TIME here and I've seen it all! LOL  

  • Padone said:

    @plasma_ring

    As for detailed topology it's not just navel and nipples, it's everywhere the whole figure.

    @Mattymanx @Oso3D @kyoto_kid

    I'm not a fan of autofit because usually doesn't work fine, but since everyone is talking about the incredible autofit features of G9 then I tried. Below there's the simple G2 Persian Top on G9, the result is not impressive it seems fine until you pose, then you see the bracelet goes to the elbow in G9 while it should stay above as in G2. This could be a problem or not depending on the outfit.

    I wonder..

    I can remember either Genesis or G2 has a different size degree from other character generations in some limbs, but I cannot remember which of those two it happened with. Anyway, this discrepancy had to be corrected for in my pose transfer scripts. I think it was about 4.4% different in size, and applied to knee and elbow bend. I wonder if this is what we're seeing here. The clothing limb has rotated the same number of degrees as the G9 limb, but unfortunately the size of the degree for the clothing is different from the character.. Maybe, maybe not, but it could be an explanation if it only happens with knee and/or elbow bend.

    Regards, Richard.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,057

    ..so a few question after trying to digest t all I've read.

    1. Are G9's skin textures (even non HD ones) 8K? 

    2. If so, can one reduce the skin map resolution back to 4K using a script like The Scene Optimiser?

    3. Do non HD textures look worse than HD ones when rendered?

    4. Is G9 radically different enough to the point that there will be no morph/shape transfer utilities from older generations like G3 an G8 (meaning you will have to buy all new figures/characters)?

    Given the return to the unimesh, am hoping to see the next release of the Skin Builder utility will work for male characters as well since G9 uses the same UV for both.  Hopefully we'll see a number of utilities that embrace both genders in the same package.

  • kyoto kid said:

    ..so a few question after trying to digest t all I've read.

    1. Are G9's skin textures (even non HD ones) 8K? 

    2. If so, can one reduce the skin map resolution back to 4K using a script like The Scene Optimiser?

    3. Do non HD textures look worse than HD ones when rendered?

    4. Is G9 radically different enough to the point that there will be no morph/shape transfer utilities from older generations like G3 an G8 (meaning you will have to buy all new figures/characters)?

    Given the return to the unimesh, am hoping to see the next release of the Skin Builder utility will work for male characters as well since G9 uses the same UV for both.  Hopefully we'll see a number of utilities that embrace both genders in the same package.

    The only 8K texture that I am aware of is the normal map, which does not load by default. 

  • IceCrMnIceCrMn Posts: 2,129

    The one and only 8k map for V9 was recently removed and replaced with a 4k map.

    http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/read_me/index/87472/start

    "...Resolved Issues

    • 2022-10-27 updated texture maps

    • 2022-11-07 updated leg Texture map to reduce from 8K to 4K..."

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024

    RAMWolff said:

    PerttiA said:

    RAMWolff said:

     I've read this thread and a couple of others and folks seem so upset that nipples and navels are now just a morph and hi def map.  SO WHAT!  I think what it boils down to is folks don't like change but are intrigued enough to check it out and then complain about X Y & Z until they get used to the new way!  LOL Cracks me up! 

    So, what is the method you use to make your own morphs to the G9 pokies and navel?

    Well I'm not a PA here, I work mostly in Poser but have developed for DS in the past and Genesis 9 is wooing me back to the fold as I really really loved Genesis 1 for the male/female ease of use.  I'm a ZBrush person so for me making nips and navels are no big deal and then just add in a Normal map and you have what you need. 

    So, you don't have an answer. 

    Whatever the PA's can do is of no interest, it's about what we the users can do and normal maps are not the solution.

  • maikdeckermaikdecker Posts: 2,752

    Daywalker Designs said:

    Some folks just don't seem to understand the difference.

    Some people probably don't want to understand the difference.

  • maikdeckermaikdecker Posts: 2,752

    Mada said:

    G9 is really not supposed to be used out-of-the-box. :)

    So it's a free product that can't be used without the user buying the stuff to make it work or products, that are made by PAs who have the stuff to make their products work?!?

  • maikdeckermaikdecker Posts: 2,752

    Torquinox said:

    So, for PAs, G9 is probably a playground. For us, G9 is more of a "keep your paws off" figure. At least that's how it looks to me.

    I can agree to this impression. Not buying is the easiest way to avoid spending money for something one does not need.

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,212

    PerttiA said:

    RAMWolff said:

    PerttiA said:

    RAMWolff said:

     I've read this thread and a couple of others and folks seem so upset that nipples and navels are now just a morph and hi def map.  SO WHAT!  I think what it boils down to is folks don't like change but are intrigued enough to check it out and then complain about X Y & Z until they get used to the new way!  LOL Cracks me up! 

    So, what is the method you use to make your own morphs to the G9 pokies and navel?

    Well I'm not a PA here, I work mostly in Poser but have developed for DS in the past and Genesis 9 is wooing me back to the fold as I really really loved Genesis 1 for the male/female ease of use.  I'm a ZBrush person so for me making nips and navels are no big deal and then just add in a Normal map and you have what you need. 

    So, you don't have an answer. 

    Whatever the PA's can do is of no interest, it's about what we the users can do and normal maps are not the solution.

    We will have to agree to disagree.  Normal maps are wonderful and can give allot of detail with out making the figures poly count overly bloated.  These maps are used to create everything from fine detail to bulging out veins and all the rest.  As a content creator I know what I talk about.  Just because I don't work for DAZ 3D doesn't make me just an average user.   

  • RAMWolff said:

    We will have to agree to disagree.  Normal maps are wonderful and can give allot of detail with out making the figures poly count overly bloated.  These maps are used to create everything from fine detail to bulging out veins and all the rest.  As a content creator I know what I talk about.  Just because I don't work for DAZ 3D doesn't make me just an average user.   

    Unfortunately, there are a lot of end users that want companies like DAZ3D to make something that fits their desired use case instead of learning how to make do with what they got. 

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,212

    Daywalker Designs said:

    RAMWolff said:

    We will have to agree to disagree.  Normal maps are wonderful and can give allot of detail with out making the figures poly count overly bloated.  These maps are used to create everything from fine detail to bulging out veins and all the rest.  As a content creator I know what I talk about.  Just because I don't work for DAZ 3D doesn't make me just an average user.   

    Unfortunately, there are a lot of end users that want companies like DAZ3D to make something that fits their desired use case instead of learning how to make do with what they got. 

    We all have moments like that but many folks have a really hard line to cross when they are used to how something works instead of being OPEN to new and advantageous improvements.  What they may think is a step back eventually makes sense unless they just refuse to accept, learn and realize that it's better.  I mean some folks still think that Aiko 3 is the cats meow but there will always be those that don't embrace change or as you stated want things the way they want things..... It is what it is!   

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 6,908

    Timbales said:

    I am specifically talking about the creases and shapes that are still visible under the breast

     

     You could have said so from the beginning.  You original post doesn't state that or read like constructive critism but more like a statement that Daz just doesn't care.  There is nothing wrong with wanting change, but no reason why you cannot make an official feature request via the ticket system to have the changes made to smooth out the chest area more.

  • takezo_3001takezo_3001 Posts: 1,979

    Mada said:

    G9 is really not supposed to be used out-of-the-box. :) Its a genderless base that is optimised to work as efficient as possible for both male and female genders, as well as any other shape users want to make.

    A base model cannot have features that are too strong, or it will make it hard to change the look of a character - anyone remember the first Michael morphs? It took an extreme effort to make the face look like anything other than Michael. Having a base that's easy to sculpt, change and morph helps to give variety to gene pool.

    ^THIS!^ Maybe you should add Dr. Geep II to your username!

    It's why I'm waiting for KHImages ultimate bend series before I fully dive in to create scenes with G9, but as far as making morphs and the like, it's perfect! For those with modest computers, your patience is wise as you cannot be so caviller with your scenes, so I hope you'll get what you need with the upcoming morph packs and the like!

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,057

    RAMWolff said:

    Daywalker Designs said:

    RAMWolff said:

    We will have to agree to disagree.  Normal maps are wonderful and can give allot of detail with out making the figures poly count overly bloated.  These maps are used to create everything from fine detail to bulging out veins and all the rest.  As a content creator I know what I talk about.  Just because I don't work for DAZ 3D doesn't make me just an average user.   

    Unfortunately, there are a lot of end users that want companies like DAZ3D to make something that fits their desired use case instead of learning how to make do with what they got. 

    We all have moments like that but many folks have a really hard line to cross when they are used to how something works instead of being OPEN to new and advantageous improvements.  What they may think is a step back eventually makes sense unless they just refuse to accept, learn and realize that it's better.  I mean some folks still think that Aiko 3 is the cats meow but there will always be those that don't embrace change or as you stated want things the way they want things..... It is what it is!   

    ...well, of all the versions of AIko, the gen3 release is still the cutest.  As time went on she began to look more and more like a realistic person and less anime inspired. I know, there have been others who tried to take her place, but Aiko3 is still my go to for that style.. 

  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 2,333

    Mattymanx said:

    Timbales said:

    I am specifically talking about the creases and shapes that are still visible under the breast

     

     You could have said so from the beginning.  You original post doesn't state that or read like constructive critism but more like a statement that Daz just doesn't care.  There is nothing wrong with wanting change, but no reason why you cannot make an official feature request via the ticket system to have the changes made to smooth out the chest area more.

    You asked and I answered. Have a great day. 

  • TorquinoxTorquinox Posts: 3,333

    RAMWolff said:

    We will have to agree to disagree.  Normal maps are wonderful and can give allot of detail with out making the figures poly count overly bloated.  These maps are used to create everything from fine detail to bulging out veins and all the rest.   

    FWIW, I like normal maps. They can be very useful, but they must be used with a modicum of intelligence. They don't provide any actual displacement. That can sometimes cause the illusion of depth to fail.

  • TorquinoxTorquinox Posts: 3,333

    richardandtracy said:

    I'm just wondering why nobody seems to have mentioned little geografts for navel an nipples (or if they did, it was so long ago I forgot). This seems a simple idea to me. I have made one (yes, that's total the depth of the experience I have, so I could be talking complete nonsense - hope not) and it appears to be nowhere near as difficult as I expected. There are good instructions in this forum that I followed, and it worked. I was doing an 'I wonder if I could...' Halloween geograft that worked much better than expected (or wanted, to be honest, in some ways it put me off) and can't be put on a family forum. But as a first experience I was amazed at how easy it was to create. The geograft could be made with all the detail the user wants and no need to boost the subdivision level at all. Regards, Richard.

    I thought about geografts, too. Then you have to be concerned about texturing the new geometry in a way that works with the existing geometry and you're maybe looking at geoshells to get coverings (not necessarily clothing but any covering) to work with them. That's true of any geografts, I think. More work.

  • MadaMada Posts: 1,991
    edited November 2022

    maikdecker said:

    Mada said:

    G9 is really not supposed to be used out-of-the-box. :)

    So it's a free product that can't be used without the user buying the stuff to make it work or products, that are made by PAs who have the stuff to make their products work?!?

    ? it comes with everything needed to work - but you do have to dial something up - sorry if I wasn't obvious about that.

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  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 6,908

    kyoto kid said:

    Mattymanx said:

    For those who do want a good reason to start using Genesis 9: - The below image uses V9 with the Essential Shapes bundle plus Growing Up for G9 on the teen and what comes with the G9 base.  So three products to make both an adult and teen.

    Both pair of shorts are G8F, tops are G3F and G3M.  Out of the box, Genesis 9 is handling previous generation clothing extremely well compared to its predecessors.

    ..OK  color me impressed, this is what I needed to see. 

    The difference in bust size and profile between the older and younger character looks far more natural than what I get with G3 and G8 even using Growing Up and/or several breast fix utilities

    To do what you did here with G3 and G8 has been a constant struggle having to make a bunch of different adjustments using various morph tools.  Even so, clothing textures, particularly any with stripes or patterns tend to distort sometimes badly.

    I have been struggling to get the GOGO dress to fit a slender and slightly lanky "twiggy" like character. and it's been a nightmare, particularly with G3. Using a different G8 teen base (which already has a smaller bust profile) helped a bit but I still cannot use the black & white texture without it distorting badly. I also get a bulge in the middle of the chest which is due to a "fit helper" modelled into the clothing mesh to prevent the old "saran wrap" look around the breasts.

    Seems that G9 gets around this quite well.

    Still to recreate my characters with G9 will need more utilities and resource content than currently is available which means a fair amount of extra expense. . Also not sure how well custom character design will work just with morphs and no sculpting, the latter which sounds like will be necessary for any serious work.

     

    A HUGE help in getting the different sizes is the built in Proportional morphs that come with the base figure.

    Depending on the outfit, you will still get some shrink wrapping of the boobs and some distortion around them as well but overall its not as bad as G8 and G3.  Smoothing modifiers are more effective because of how well it auto fits now.   The bra fit perfectly instead of looking like it was a larger bra taped to smaller cleavage.  As for the tank top, its G3M's basicwear tank and I had to manuall fit it and scale it down so it didn;t look like she was camping in it.  Also did it to get a proper drape across her chest so it would shrink wrap her.

  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    I'm finding it quite hard to decide who I agree with in this debate. I see the point that @Padone and some others are making but I can also appreciate that the developers have chosen a direction to make other things easier to achieve.

    What I don't understand is this kind of superior attitude which seems to suggest that people who buy into G9 are somehow expected to know how to create normal maps in ZBrush (I'll never be able to afford ZBrush) or that G9 is just a base figure and not meant to use without some significant vendor additions (or, again, user additions created in ZBrush). Perhaps this has always been the case and I have just not noticed it before but I have to say that I rarely use HD morphs on G8 because they cause all kinds of poke-through isses as the clothing collides with the base mesh and not the HD additions. So something that has an even more basic mesh does not seem to be a step in the right direction for me - unless they come up with a way to have dForce drape over HD.

    As for nipples - they are not great on G8 either which is why I use a 3rd. Party geograft.

  • WonderlandWonderland Posts: 6,881

    Another issue I have with G9 is that the lips seem "mushier." There are so many small muscles in human lips and G8(1) and even V4 seem the best at these micro expressions. I don't know the correct names for what's under the hood, but are there less vertices or quads or polygons or whatever they are called in the lips? I had this same problem with all Genesis models until G8. 

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,057
    edited November 2022

    Mattymanx said:

    A HUGE help in getting the different sizes is the built in Proportional morphs that come with the base figure.

    Depending on the outfit, you will still get some shrink wrapping of the boobs and some distortion around them as well but overall its not as bad as G8 and G3.  Smoothing modifiers are more effective because of how well it auto fits now.   The bra fit perfectly instead of looking like it was a larger bra taped to smaller cleavage.  As for the tank top, its G3M's basicwear tank and I had to manuall fit it and scale it down so it didn;t look like she was camping in it.  Also did it to get a proper drape across her chest so it would shrink wrap her.

    ...ah, so the tank top wasn't auto fitted.  I don't mind manually fitting hair, that's easy and necessary to keep the movment and styling morphs (been doing that since Gen4) but clothing is a different process and sometimes more complex matter, particularly when posing. 

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • marble said:

    I'm finding it quite hard to decide who I agree with in this debate. I see the point that @Padone and some others are making but I can also appreciate that the developers have chosen a direction to make other things easier to achieve.

    What I don't understand is this kind of superior attitude which seems to suggest that people who buy into G9 are somehow expected to know how to create normal maps in ZBrush (I'll never be able to afford ZBrush) or that G9 is just a base figure and not meant to use without some significant vendor additions (or, again, user additions created in ZBrush). Perhaps this has always been the case and I have just not noticed it before but I have to say that I rarely use HD morphs on G8 because they cause all kinds of poke-through isses as the clothing collides with the base mesh and not the HD additions. So something that has an even more basic mesh does not seem to be a step in the right direction for me - unless they come up with a way to have dForce drape over HD.

    I think the point here is what content creators can do, without having access to the PA-only HD importer, rather than suggesting that everyone should sculpt their own morphs (which does not have to be done in ZBrush, GoZ just makes that convenient when it comes to actual morphs).

    As for nipples - they are not great on G8 either which is why I use a 3rd. Party geograft.

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