Getting on the 9 train, or not

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Comments

  • MadaMada Posts: 1,991
    edited November 2022

    Padone said:

    @Mada Thank you it is always useful to have insights from the DAZ team. I was not asking if it is easier for PAs to make templates for G9, I was asking if the same "better" autofit can be achieved with better templates for G3-G8, that are available in the shop and from 3rd parties, that's what my impression is.

    No I do not believe that to be the case, based on my own experience creating outfits for the store for each of those generations.

    For example for G3 there's "wear them all" that's not included in the G3 base package, but it doesn't mean that the G3 autofit doesn't work fine, it only means that DAZ didn't make the necessary templates for it to work fine, that's another thing entirely. There are better templates for G8 too. So, if you for example compare G9 vs G3 with the templates provided by daz in the base package, it is of course true that G9 autofits better. If you compare G9 with better templates provided by PAs and 3rd parties, it may not be so.

    I'd like your opinion on this please that may also be useful to others.

    My opinion is based on how much easier it was to rig on G9 without a template at all in comparison to the other figures. Outfits on G9 autofit better because you can push the templates to do more than before.

    Post edited by Mada on
  • PadonePadone Posts: 3,700

    @Mada Thank you for your reply, it is useful to better understand things at least to me being not a autofit expert.

  • I think one of the more interesting things the past few years is that we are pretty darned fractured as far as what generation figures people use. Except for the Poser Vicky4ever people, it seems like g3 was really the last monolithic move that everyone did as one large userbase.

    I still see items like hair, poses, and some clothing that are released for "g3/g8/g8.1", still a lot of "for g8 and g8.1" and now "g8/8.1 and g9" Heck, there's a vendor over at Rendo that makes everything for g3 and seems to have no intention of switching to a newer generation cheeky

    It feels like g9 is just going to add another layer of fracturing to the userbase.

  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    Hylas said:

    marble said:

    GhostofMacbeth said:

    Curious why you need cutout opacity on skin? Perhaps there is another way to approach what you are doing.

     

    I searched the forum for possible alternative ways of doing this but couldn't find one. As for why .... well, during that search I also noticed a few other comments basically asking the same as though it is a ridiculous thing to do.

    If you enable Cutout Opacity, it will also enable Thin Walled. This will give any skin using Translucency a different and inferior look.

    That's why Cutout Opacity is useless for anybody who renders IRAY human skins - both UBER and PBR.

    And that's why some folks are scratching their heads as to why you would need this function.

    An image like the one you posted would have to be assembled in post if you want IRAY human skin to look its best.

     

    Ok - I'm having to explain more than I intended here so I'll try. Yes, I do a lot in post using two images - one with cutout and another without. The problem is more to do with positioning the internals so that eveything looks right in the final image so cutout opacity helps a lot with that. Simple matter with Uber skins but I struggled with PBR. I had to switch to Uber, apply the cutout and then overlay the PBR skin in post. with some masking. I'm not an expert at any of this so I'm flying by the seat of my pants with all this technology.

  • takezo_3001takezo_3001 Posts: 1,979
    edited November 2022

    All you need to do to get lighter skin is to simply up the gamma/desaturate the textures from the translucency/diffuse channel, I have my characters at 0.9-1.0, and they're light as snow as I render gingers a LOT!

    Also of note, have your transmission colour set to 254-254-254 with no maps in the channel.

    Post edited by takezo_3001 on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,057
    edited November 2022

    takezo_3001 said:

    All you need to do to get lighter skin is to simply up the gamma/desaturate the textures from the translucency/diffuse channel, I have my characters at 0.9-1.0, and they're light as snow as I render gingers a LOT!

    Also of note, have your transmission colour set to 254-254-254 with no maps in the channel.

    ...same here as well as a few albinos.  

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • takezo_3001takezo_3001 Posts: 1,979

    Cool I'm not alone with my love of Gingers, although the term is used as an insult in the UK, I am not from the UK however, so Ginger it is!

    It also rolls off the tongue a lot better than redhead! :)

    GRRRR, just got a bleedin' 503 just sitting here!

  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,212

    Ginger is a lovely term and one of my favorite spices!  

  • my very freckled redhaired mother was nicknamed Ginger Meggs as a child

    never saw it as an insult

    we are Aussies though

    Gingers rock

  • takezo_3001takezo_3001 Posts: 1,979

    WendyLuvsCatz said:

    my very freckled redhaired mother was nicknamed Ginger Meggs as a child

    never saw it as an insult

    we are Aussies though

    Gingers rock

    Cool, I loved Gingers ever since I had a crush on a classmate when in gradeschool!

    From what I understand, everything there is out to kill you, (Or the running joke that is) so I'm not surprised that the insult would not carry any weight down under! :) ;)

    RAMWolff said:

    Ginger is a lovely term and one of my favorite spices!  

    Indeed, ginger sounds as welcoming as a hot cup of hot chocolate on a crisp, snowy afternoon of sledding! 

  • PendraiaPendraia Posts: 3,598

    CHWT said:

    Pendraia said:

    RAMWolff said:

    So with this new mesh set to be "inbetween" folks will be able to make small breasted women, trans folks, little kids and all that with no issues with how the clothing fits.  That's the idea any ways.  I've read this thread and a couple of others and folks seem so upset that nipples and navels are now just a morph and hi def map.  SO WHAT!  I think what it boils down to is folks don't like change but are intrigued enough to check it out and then complain about X Y & Z until they get used to the new way!  LOL Cracks me up! 

    Agreed Ram...happens with every new figure. 

    Whether someone likes a change depends on whether that person thinks the change is good or bad. Just like everyone has the right to say something and we might not like what they say. G9 will always be the apple of some people's eyes...

    I don't disagree that everyone has the right to say what they want. I merely said that I find it amusing that this happens everytime there is a new figure. Personally I didn't like it when they went back to separate genders. It stopped me from buying into any generation since to the same degree as I did for V4 and Genesis. I have bought some things but I only bought the rare item that I could either use on other figures or liked enough to fork out cash for it. My buying reduced drastically...Genesis 9 has reversed this trend somewhat. I don't know that I would call G9 the apple of my eye though as I use many figures including older ones like Nursoda's. I've gotten very good at transferring clothing manually where there isn't an autofit clone.

  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 2,333
    edited November 2022

    .

    Post edited by Timbales on
  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,057

    takezo_3001 said:

    Cool I'm not alone with my love of Gingers, although the term is used as an insult in the UK, I am not from the UK however, so Ginger it is!

    It also rolls off the tongue a lot better than redhead! :)

    GRRRR, just got a bleedin' 503 just sitting here!

    ...the main character of a storyline I am working on is has "Ginger" hair.  One trouble is finding a good fair, freckled skin which again is why I've taken to using Zev0's Skin Builder which has a freckles overlay.

  • marblemarble Posts: 7,500

    Pendraia said:

     

    I don't disagree that everyone has the right to say what they want. I merely said that I find it amusing that this happens everytime there is a new figure.

     While that may be true, there's usuallly a reason. It is not because everyone is habitually negative but there is often a reason to be disappointed. New figures are released with much fanfare and hype which they rarely (if ever) live up to. So we end up hoping that what we dared to wish for might arrive next time. Also, there is that considerable expense involved and the legitimate questions about whether the new figure is so much better than the last one that all that expense is justified. Again, it rarely is. What pushes people into buying each generation is the fact that new characters, clothing, morphs, etc., are only created for the latest generation (at least, here in the DAZ store). So there is an initial resistance which eventually relents as users are attracted to the latest content.

    Personally, I think that G3 could almost match G8 but there was quickly so much more content available for G8. I know that some people are still sticking with G3 but I was unable to get G8 clothing to fit and pose nicely so I soon moved to G8 - especially as I didn't have a large investment in G3 content. That's not the case with G8 - I have tons of content, lots of characters, morphs and all I need to keep going until the next generation comes along in a couple of years.

  • Timbales said:

    I've been buying stuff here since Mike & Vicky 3. There's a lot of potential in G9, but I'm also looking at what's for sale for her so far and seeing clothes with the same vacuum-form fitted breasts. I'll continue to buy the stuff that I like and can use, and hopefully it encourages those artists to continue making that content.

    Out of curiosity, what exactly is wrong with something like a nightgown, strapless dress, or triangle top bikini being form fitting? I'd consider those items being loose to be flawed, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

  • SolitarySandpiperSolitarySandpiper Posts: 566
    edited November 2022

    For me as a customer, the clear potential of Genesis 9 (ie: Vicky 9) has been completely overshadowed by the shear amount of dross and tat appearing in the store!... So far i'm not seeing any evidence from PAs that this generation is in anyway better for them or us than the previous generation and i really, really REALLY can't wait for this to change!

    Post edited by SolitarySandpiper on
  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 2,333

    Timbales said:

    I've been buying stuff here since Mike & Vicky 3. There's a lot of potential in G9, but I'm also looking at what's for sale for her so far and seeing clothes with the same vacuum-form fitted breasts. I'll continue to buy the stuff that I like and can use, and hopefully it encourages those artists to continue making that content.

    Out of curiosity, what exactly is wrong with something like a nightgown, strapless dress, or triangle top bikini being form fitting? I'd consider those items being loose to be flawed, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

    When the clothing item should have a formed cup or is constructed to conform to the breast, then I think it's fine. When it's a garment that doesn't and clings to skin instead of looking like the real world garment, then all the advantages and realism of the figure don't matter anymore for me.
  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    edited November 2022

    Masterstroke said:

    Padone said:

    @Masterstroke

    S[...] the more they use sss the darker will be compared to raytracing. The faithful method is much better to retain the original tint and light reaction for skins and materials in general.

    Yes, the sss makes the main difference. 
    Spectral Rendering mode won't fix the problem, though. The skin remains too dark. 
    The question is: Why is everybody using those high SSS values? Every Value higher than 10 will be too dark.
    Your Left: Rec faithful, Your right: Spectral Rendering OFF.
    Camera Headlamps are all off.

    It's the out of the box sss settings themselves that cause the skin to appear too dark. I haven't posted him yet in the faces thread, but here is a G9M I spun up using Vicky 9's skin with my own tweaks to the sss settings. His translucency weight is set to .85 (using a lower translucency is not the answer when it comes to chromatic sss). I use spectral rendering set at Faithful cie1931 - 

    Setup lighting - This is the lighting I use to set up all of my characters...default tone mapping...no postwork - 

    Photo HDRI with overcast lighting..tweaked tone mapping...no postwork - 

    Post edited by MelissaGT on
  • AllenArtAllenArt Posts: 7,169

    MelissaGT said:

    Masterstroke said:

    Padone said:

    @Masterstroke

    S[...] the more they use sss the darker will be compared to raytracing. The faithful method is much better to retain the original tint and light reaction for skins and materials in general.

    Yes, the sss makes the main difference. 
    Spectral Rendering mode won't fix the problem, though. The skin remains too dark. 
    The question is: Why is everybody using those high SSS values? Every Value higher than 10 will be too dark.
    Your Left: Rec faithful, Your right: Spectral Rendering OFF.
    Camera Headlamps are all off.

    It's the out of the box sss settings themselves that cause the skin to appear too dark. I haven't posted him yet in the faces thread, but here is a G9M I spun up using Vicky 9's skin with my own tweaks to the sss settings. His translucency weight is set to .85 (using a lower translucency is not the answer when it comes to chromatic sss). I use spectral rendering set at Faithful cie1931 - 

    Setup lighting - This is the lighting I use to set up all of my characters...default tone mapping...no postwork - 

    Photo HDRI with overcast lighting..tweaked tone mapping...no postwork - 

    Veeeeeerrrrrry nice :) 

  • plasma_ringplasma_ring Posts: 1,025

    MelissaGT said:

    Masterstroke said:

    Padone said:

    @Masterstroke

    S[...] the more they use sss the darker will be compared to raytracing. The faithful method is much better to retain the original tint and light reaction for skins and materials in general.

    Yes, the sss makes the main difference. 
    Spectral Rendering mode won't fix the problem, though. The skin remains too dark. 
    The question is: Why is everybody using those high SSS values? Every Value higher than 10 will be too dark.
    Your Left: Rec faithful, Your right: Spectral Rendering OFF.
    Camera Headlamps are all off.

    It's the out of the box sss settings themselves that cause the skin to appear too dark. I haven't posted him yet in the faces thread, but here is a G9M I spun up using Vicky 9's skin with my own tweaks to the sss settings. His translucency weight is set to .85 (using a lower translucency is not the answer when it comes to chromatic sss). I use spectral rendering set at Faithful cie1931 - 

    Setup lighting - This is the lighting I use to set up all of my characters...default tone mapping...no postwork - 

    Photo HDRI with overcast lighting..tweaked tone mapping...no postwork - 

    He's stunning! Really beautiful work. 

  • CHWTCHWT Posts: 1,179
    edited November 2022
    Pendraia said:

    CHWT said:

    Pendraia said:

    RAMWolff said:

    So with this new mesh set to be "inbetween" folks will be able to make small breasted women, trans folks, little kids and all that with no issues with how the clothing fits.  That's the idea any ways.  I've read this thread and a couple of others and folks seem so upset that nipples and navels are now just a morph and hi def map.  SO WHAT!  I think what it boils down to is folks don't like change but are intrigued enough to check it out and then complain about X Y & Z until they get used to the new way!  LOL Cracks me up! 

    Agreed Ram...happens with every new figure. 

    Whether someone likes a change depends on whether that person thinks the change is good or bad. Just like everyone has the right to say something and we might not like what they say. G9 will always be the apple of some people's eyes...

    I don't disagree that everyone has the right to say what they want. I merely said that I find it amusing that this happens everytime there is a new figure. Personally I didn't like it when they went back to separate genders. It stopped me from buying into any generation since to the same degree as I did for V4 and Genesis. I have bought some things but I only bought the rare item that I could either use on other figures or liked enough to fork out cash for it. My buying reduced drastically...Genesis 9 has reversed this trend somewhat. I don't know that I would call G9 the apple of my eye though as I use many figures including older ones like Nursoda's. I've gotten very good at transferring clothing manually where there isn't an autofit clone.

    Yeah we all have different needs. Just bought the initial DO morphs, expressions, 'essentials extension' and stopped, AND started converting my G8 characters LOL. G9 could be my closeup goto though.
    Post edited by CHWT on
  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,131

    MelissaGT said:

    Masterstroke said:

    Padone said:

    @Masterstroke

    S[...] the more they use sss the darker will be compared to raytracing. The faithful method is much better to retain the original tint and light reaction for skins and materials in general.

    Yes, the sss makes the main difference. 
    Spectral Rendering mode won't fix the problem, though. The skin remains too dark. 
    The question is: Why is everybody using those high SSS values? Every Value higher than 10 will be too dark.
    Your Left: Rec faithful, Your right: Spectral Rendering OFF.
    Camera Headlamps are all off.

    It's the out of the box sss settings themselves that cause the skin to appear too dark. I haven't posted him yet in the faces thread, but here is a G9M I spun up using Vicky 9's skin with my own tweaks to the sss settings. His translucency weight is set to .85 (using a lower translucency is not the answer when it comes to chromatic sss). I use spectral rendering set at Faithful cie1931 - 

    Setup lighting - This is the lighting I use to set up all of my characters...default tone mapping...no postwork - 

    Photo HDRI with overcast lighting..tweaked tone mapping...no postwork - 

    Best one of these I've seen yet.

  • MelissaGT said:

    Masterstroke said:

    Padone said:

    @Masterstroke

    S[...] the more they use sss the darker will be compared to raytracing. The faithful method is much better to retain the original tint and light reaction for skins and materials in general.

    Yes, the sss makes the main difference. 
    Spectral Rendering mode won't fix the problem, though. The skin remains too dark. 
    The question is: Why is everybody using those high SSS values? Every Value higher than 10 will be too dark.
    Your Left: Rec faithful, Your right: Spectral Rendering OFF.
    Camera Headlamps are all off.

    It's the out of the box sss settings themselves that cause the skin to appear too dark. I haven't posted him yet in the faces thread, but here is a G9M I spun up using Vicky 9's skin with my own tweaks to the sss settings. His translucency weight is set to .85 (using a lower translucency is not the answer when it comes to chromatic sss). I use spectral rendering set at Faithful cie1931 - 

    Setup lighting - This is the lighting I use to set up all of my characters...default tone mapping...no postwork - 

    Photo HDRI with overcast lighting..tweaked tone mapping...no postwork - 

    Looks really good. what did you tweak, then? You must have brighten the diffuse map by a lot and used it in your sss channel.
    Against the book I don't use chromatic sss either and I don't see areason why, for I cannot see any improvements in my renders by doing so. Infact skin comes out again too dark with chromatik sss. 

    Again: just go to Poly Haven and download the Venice Sunrise HDRI for testing your skin here. The reason, why I recomand it so much is, that it has people in the map, which you can compare your skin tone with.
    The HDRI downloads are free and no subscribtion is needed.
    Venice Sunrise HDRI • Poly Haven
     

  • PadonePadone Posts: 3,700
    edited November 2022

    Masterstroke said:
    The question is: Why is everybody using those high SSS values? Every Value higher than 10 will be too dark.

    Probably because a high sss value is needed to simulate a young skin, while a old skin will get a low sss. A quick trick to get a bright skin is to boost the translucency color above 1.0.

    g9-skin.png
    482 x 155 - 69K
    Post edited by Padone on
  • ArtAngelArtAngel Posts: 1,694

    Gordig said:

    ArtAngel said:

    nonesuch00 said:

    It also means that infants to about age 3 or 4 will be much easier to make realistic shaped. I know lots of people have complained about past efforts being down right scary.

    Hopefully some decent infants/toddlers come down the pipeline . . . or better still, some long hair breeds, like Shih Tzus, Yorkies and Maltese pups for the Daz Dog . . . then I'd be hopping on the train in a heartbeat.

    Daz Dog has nothing to do with G9. Even if someone adventurous (looking at you, @Oso3d) made a dog morph for G9, that wouldn't implicate Daz Dog at all.

    Good then more likely to get decent long haired dogs with cute pony tails, up dos and braided tails . . . or mohawks. Big grin.
  • MelissaGTMelissaGT Posts: 2,611
    edited November 2022

    Masterstroke said:

    MelissaGT said:

    Masterstroke said:

    Padone said:

    @Masterstroke

    S[...] the more they use sss the darker will be compared to raytracing. The faithful method is much better to retain the original tint and light reaction for skins and materials in general.

    Yes, the sss makes the main difference. 
    Spectral Rendering mode won't fix the problem, though. The skin remains too dark. 
    The question is: Why is everybody using those high SSS values? Every Value higher than 10 will be too dark.
    Your Left: Rec faithful, Your right: Spectral Rendering OFF.
    Camera Headlamps are all off.

    It's the out of the box sss settings themselves that cause the skin to appear too dark. I haven't posted him yet in the faces thread, but here is a G9M I spun up using Vicky 9's skin with my own tweaks to the sss settings. His translucency weight is set to .85 (using a lower translucency is not the answer when it comes to chromatic sss). I use spectral rendering set at Faithful cie1931 - 

    Looks really good. what did you tweak, then? You must have brighten the diffuse map by a lot and used it in your sss channel.
    Against the book I don't use chromatic sss either and I don't see areason why, for I cannot see any improvements in my renders by doing so. Infact skin comes out again too dark with chromatik sss. 

    Again: just go to Poly Haven and download the Venice Sunrise HDRI for testing your skin here. The reason, why I recomand it so much is, that it has people in the map, which you can compare your skin tone with.
    The HDRI downloads are free and no subscribtion is needed.
    Venice Sunrise HDRI • Poly Haven
     

    Nope, I sure didn't alter the diffuse or sss maps...those are out of the box. It's all in the sss settings themselves - 

     

    Here he is against the Venice Sunrise HDRI...I deliberately left the dof turned off so you could see the peeps in the background - 

    Out of the box, pretty much 100% of Daz skins (and even a lot of PA skins) are too dark and too orange...and that's all because of the sss settings, which are easy to fix. And the sss settings I posted above will typically work with dark skin too. 

    Post edited by MelissaGT on
  • Looks super cool. Thx for sharing :-)

  • MelissaGT said:

    Out of the box, pretty much 100% of Daz skins (and even a lot of PA skins) are too dark and too orange...and that's all because of the sss settings, which are easy to fix. And the sss settings I posted above will typically work with dark skin too. 

    I suspect this is a matter of personal preference, since the default settings for the characters being too dark seems to be something that's constantly being brought up and hasn't been changed by the content creators. 

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,362
    edited November 2022

    Basically you use a similar technique as is used to port over the morphs from G8 to G9. Export a G8F/G8M obj in base resolution, then import them back in as obj. I deleted the eye and internal mouth polygons before I exported. Use the Transfer utility to fit this to G9 (taking advantage of the G8 clone), then Sub divide the fitted item. You can either load the G3/G8 skins on to this "clothing" item on G9, or geo shell attached to it. Hide the G9 base, but not the eyes etc. Finally save this G8 skin as a G9 asset like you would with any autofitted clothing item.

    It works, but there are some major snags. First is the nipples don't line up, as was mentioned above, but worse than that is when the mouth is opened the lips don't follow G9's lips properly and the result looks horrible. I guess an edit of the UV map would overcome the first issue, and a weight map to make the lips move properly should overcome the second. Either way it is a compromise, and ideally the skins need to be converted to G9 UV maps. It is however a stop gap solution to give G9 more variety in skins now, since not many have been released up to now. Anyway, judge the result for yourself. Below is V9 wearing Bridget 8's skin. Note that only Bridget's skin is used, the eyes and lashes are still those of V9.

    V9 - Bridget Skin Face.jpg
    2048 x 2048 - 581K
    V9 - Bridget Skin Full.jpg
    2048 x 2048 - 208K
    Post edited by Richard Haseltine on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,011

    I often change the transmission color to a light peach or maybe slightly more orange-yellow, but it's worth noting that the default skin isn't wrong. Some skin looks like that.

     

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