Getting on the 9 train, or not

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  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024

    Oso3D said:

    G9 is not 'HD based.' 
    I have an anthro character coming out that's not HD.

    If anything it's easier to use without HD because of the higher base polygons.

     Not in the area that counts winkblush

  • I'm honestly not sure what to do with this, now that I've seen it. Victoria 9 looks more or less "normal?" That is, it looks how you'd expect a regular Daz character to look? But Genesis 9 looks more like a base mesh you'd use to start sculpting a Daz character. I don't see how it's useable for any purpose out-of-the-box. Maybe it plays nicely with clothing, or something, due to the simplicity of the mesh? But we won't really know that until people have used it extensively. I've heard the facial expressions are better than Genesis 8, but I'm still learning 8.1, so can't personally confirm.

    Final answer: wait and see. frown

  • algovincianalgovincian Posts: 2,610

    Art2Eager said:

    But Genesis 9 looks more like a base mesh you'd use to start sculpting a Daz character.

    That's because it *is* a base mesh designed to be a starting point for the creation of custom characters lol ;)

    - Greg 

  • PadonePadone Posts: 3,681

    Oso3D said:

    G9 is not 'HD based.' 
    I have an anthro character coming out that's not HD.

    If anything it's easier to use without HD because of the higher base polygons.

    It is about topology aka mesh flow, not about mesh density. This I already explained in details in your previous example so let me know what's not clear to you I'll try to explain better. Sure if you don't need body details then the G9 base mesh may fit, otherwise you go HD. For example the G9 navel is HD, in the base package you can't even turn it off there's no way. So you see why G9 is HD based.

  • After playing a while with G9, I am still on the fence. I agree mostly with Padone here. 
    I really don't like that unisex base figure system at all.

  • Padone said:

    Oso3D said:

    G9 is not 'HD based.' 
    I have an anthro character coming out that's not HD.

    If anything it's easier to use without HD because of the higher base polygons.

    It is about topology aka mesh flow, not about mesh density. This I already explained in details in your previous example so let me know what's not clear to you I'll try to explain better. Sure if you don't need body details then the G9 base mesh may fit, otherwise you go HD. For example the G9 navel is HD, in the base package you can't even turn it off there's no way. So you see why G9 is HD based.

    That at least neds a rider "for some purposes".

  • MattymanxMattymanx Posts: 6,902
    edited November 2022

    Padone said:

    the G9 navel is HD, in the base package you can't even turn it off there's no way.

     

    It can be disabled.  Thats in the base Essentials package, what everyone gets for free.

    G9-Navel.png
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  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,002

    Padone said:

    Oso3D said:

    G9 is not 'HD based.' 
    I have an anthro character coming out that's not HD.

    If anything it's easier to use without HD because of the higher base polygons.

    It is about topology aka mesh flow, not about mesh density. This I already explained in details in your previous example so let me know what's not clear to you I'll try to explain better. Sure if you don't need body details then the G9 base mesh may fit, otherwise you go HD. For example the G9 navel is HD, in the base package you can't even turn it off there's no way. So you see why G9 is HD based.

    Navel can be turned off.

    Your assertion that the figure needs HD details is incorrect.

    If you need further explanation or examples, feel free to ask for help.

     

  • Oso3D said:

    Padone said:

    Oso3D said:

    G9 is not 'HD based.' 
    I have an anthro character coming out that's not HD.

    If anything it's easier to use without HD because of the higher base polygons.

    It is about topology aka mesh flow, not about mesh density. This I already explained in details in your previous example so let me know what's not clear to you I'll try to explain better. Sure if you don't need body details then the G9 base mesh may fit, otherwise you go HD. For example the G9 navel is HD, in the base package you can't even turn it off there's no way. So you see why G9 is HD based.

    Navel can be turned off.

    Your assertion that the figure needs HD details is incorrect.

    If you need further explanation or examples, feel free to ask for help.

     

    Some folks just don't seem to understand the difference.
  • RL_MediaRL_Media Posts: 339

    Been messin with it the past few days. So far it is lookin like I might not switch to the G9 train at all, instead of just getting on when the ticket price is lower, there is more content to use, and most of the bugs are ironed out. Without HD, it seems it is just a vaguely human shaped clay person. Great for zbrush sculpters with access to the hd tools I am sure. For the rest of us tinkerers, not so much.

    If someone without a high end PC wanted to render say a crowded beach scene, it's gonna be a whole lot of render passes and compositing involved. With say, g8, you can render quite a few backround filler people at once, and just turn it down to base mesh subd and lower the resolution on image maps. They still look like real people, navel, nipples and all.

    Maybe change my mind in the future, but for now it's not lookin too inticing.

  • davesodaveso Posts: 6,974

    yeah. As i use it, my thoughts go to the fact i can do what i need to do using G8.  Everyone has different needs, of course. Now what can I do with the morph package if not on G9? Let it clutter dust or send it all back for a refund? It would be the second $6 DAZ+ coupon I would lose because of G9, so even if I don;t use G9, it has cost me $12. 

  • PadonePadone Posts: 3,681

    @Mattymanx Thank you I missed the HD navel off.

    @Oso3D Yes please show us how you do a navel with the G9 base mesh, without HD or geografts.

  • MadaMada Posts: 1,967
    edited November 2022

    Art2Eager said:

    I'm honestly not sure what to do with this, now that I've seen it. Victoria 9 looks more or less "normal?" That is, it looks how you'd expect a regular Daz character to look? But Genesis 9 looks more like a base mesh you'd use to start sculpting a Daz character. I don't see how it's useable for any purpose out-of-the-box. Maybe it plays nicely with clothing, or something, due to the simplicity of the mesh? But we won't really know that until people have used it extensively. I've heard the facial expressions are better than Genesis 8, but I'm still learning 8.1, so can't personally confirm.

    Final answer: wait and see. frown

    G9 is really not supposed to be used out-of-the-box. :) Its a genderless base that is optimised to work as efficient as possible for both male and female genders, as well as any other shape users want to make.

    A base model cannot have features that are too strong, or it will make it hard to change the look of a character - anyone remember the first Michael morphs? It took an extreme effort to make the face look like anything other than Michael. Having a base that's easy to sculpt, change and morph helps to give variety to gene pool.

    Post edited by Mada on
  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,002

    It should be noted that in a lot of arenas, the approach taken is generally to make a high polygon sculpt, project it onto a lower polygon figure, and then bake the difference as Normals. That process does not require HD tools.

    Or, as I did here, just do it in basic resolution. 

    And, like previous image, this uses no G9 elements that cost money.

    Though, again, for less than $20 you can get the HD navel/nipples plus loads of shapes to play with. I don't know about you but even before I was a vendor I snapped up the base head/body shapes, and it's even cheaper now that it's not separated male and female.

     

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  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 2,330
    I don't agree it's a genderless base. It seems like it's optimized for female figures, which makes perfect sense given sales figures and popularity. Maybe I'll be proven wrong and we'll see some morphs in the store that make the chest look undeveloped, but it very much looks like G9 was made to have nice looking breasts.
  • RL_MediaRL_Media Posts: 339

    One thing that bugs me, now a lot of products will be made for both g8 an g9, but have only one zip containing both. Probably a tiny minority though, I doubt most people like to have seperated libraries by figure like I do. Just means I gotta split them up myself and archive it that way. A bit of extra work.

  • MadaMada Posts: 1,967
    edited November 2022

    Timbales said:

    I don't agree it's a genderless base. It seems like it's optimized for female figures, which makes perfect sense given sales figures and popularity. Maybe I'll be proven wrong and we'll see some morphs in the store that make the chest look undeveloped, but it very much looks like G9 was made to have nice looking breasts.

    Its split 50/50 between the male and female shapes so that you only have to dial 50% either way. With the original Genesis figure you had to dial 100% to get the female shape and it caused stretching issues. 

    Image shows Breasts Gone morph applied to the base figure with a texture map that shows up distortions

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    Post edited by Mada on
  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 14,025

    RL_Media said:

    One thing that bugs me, now a lot of products will be made for both g8 an g9, but have only one zip containing both. Probably a tiny minority though, I doubt most people like to have seperated libraries by figure like I do. Just means I gotta split them up myself and archive it that way. A bit of extra work.

    It has always been that way. Nothing is new about this.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,002

    Timbales said:

    I don't agree it's a genderless base. It seems like it's optimized for female figures, which makes perfect sense given sales figures and popularity. Maybe I'll be proven wrong and we'll see some morphs in the store that make the chest look undeveloped, but it very much looks like G9 was made to have nice looking breasts.

    Basic shape pack:

     

    Beach Guy G9.jpg
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  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 2,330

    Mada said:

    Timbales said:

    I don't agree it's a genderless base. It seems like it's optimized for female figures, which makes perfect sense given sales figures and popularity. Maybe I'll be proven wrong and we'll see some morphs in the store that make the chest look undeveloped, but it very much looks like G9 was made to have nice looking breasts.

    Its split 50/50 between the male and female shapes so that you only have to dial 50% either way. With the original Genesis figure you had to dial 100% to get the female shape and it caused stretching issues. 

    Image shows Breasts Gone morph applied to the base figure with a texture map that shows up distortions

    and with no textures as it loads

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  • MadaMada Posts: 1,967

    are you going to render with no textures?

  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 2,330

    I'm not going to render a checkboard skin either. Thank you. 

  • MadaMada Posts: 1,967
    edited November 2022

    Timbales said:

    I'm not going to render a checkboard skin either. Thank you. 

    OK here's an image with the shoulder bend down. It looks like you don't have joint correctives turned on.

    edit : added an image with the shoulder bend down and a male skin, as well as a clothing item with both shoulders bend down and breast gone morph. I do use the checkerboard texture because it shows up problems right away.

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    Post edited by Mada on
  • fred9803fred9803 Posts: 1,564

    RL_Media said:


    If someone without a high end PC wanted to render say a crowded beach scene, it's gonna be a whole lot of render passes.....

    That's not to say G9 is either good or bad, just that it lends itself to those who basically make one (maybe two) character renders at high subD. Those who don't like myself can always use other base models for their work and pass on G9.

  • Oso3DOso3D Posts: 15,002

    If you are trying to make a crowd, yes, the density is twice normal. But you can take a lot of shortcuts to help: you can skip mouth objects, tears, and eyelashes for characters not close enough for it to matter. Also, most of the actual load of a figure is texture, not geometry.

    So it's unlikely to make a big difference?

     

  • TorquinoxTorquinox Posts: 3,292

    Nice to see distorted, completely unbelievable triceps continue to yet another generation.

  • MadaMada Posts: 1,967

    I made a quick pose preset to turn the base joint correctives on and off since it seems like it happens a lot - zero figure would be the biggest culprit since it will reset everything to zero. Restore figure is the better option to use.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/5hvvouec08i5dvm/BaseJointCorrectiveOn.zip?dl=0

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,358

    Oso3D said:

    If you are trying to make a crowd, yes, the density is twice normal. But you can take a lot of shortcuts to help: you can skip mouth objects, tears, and eyelashes for characters not close enough for it to matter. Also, most of the actual load of a figure is texture, not geometry.

    So it's unlikely to make a big difference?

    I think it will make almost zero difference. The geometry of the base figure consumes a very small amount of the total resources of a typical figure render, even at Sub-D 2. If you push that up to Sub-D 4 or 5, then it will start to be relevant, but you would need a very good reason to go up to that level of sub division, particularly on G9, which already has a lot more base level polys.

    As you said textures are more relevant, but then so is hair, and clothing. I have seen eyebrows with a million polys, which makes the resource consumption of the base a total irrelevance.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,027
    edited November 2022

    Mada said:

    Timbales said:

    I don't agree it's a genderless base. It seems like it's optimized for female figures, which makes perfect sense given sales figures and popularity. Maybe I'll be proven wrong and we'll see some morphs in the store that make the chest look undeveloped, but it very much looks like G9 was made to have nice looking breasts.

    Its split 50/50 between the male and female shapes so that you only have to dial 50% either way. With the original Genesis figure you had to dial 100% to get the female shape and it caused stretching issues. 

    Image shows Breasts Gone morph applied to the base figure with a texture map that shows up distortions

    ...the new unimesh is about the only thing that interests me as with previous generations, using "Breasts Gone" morph often results in collapse of the mesh in the nipple/areola region (which can affect clothing fits) as well as does nothing to reduce the diameter of the breast area (often resulting in an unnatural curved "ridge" at the bottom).  Even reducing the breast size with "Breast Small" causes these distortions as the diameter of the default breast mesh in G3 and G8 is rather large and again is not adjusted accordingly.    

    Post edited by kyoto kid on
  • RAMWolffRAMWolff Posts: 10,211

    So with this new mesh set to be "inbetween" folks will be able to make small breasted women, trans folks, little kids and all that with no issues with how the clothing fits.  That's the idea any ways.  I've read this thread and a couple of others and folks seem so upset that nipples and navels are now just a morph and hi def map.  SO WHAT!  I think what it boils down to is folks don't like change but are intrigued enough to check it out and then complain about X Y & Z until they get used to the new way!  LOL Cracks me up! 

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