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Getting on the 9 train, or not

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  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,027

    takezo_3001 said:

    kyoto kid said:

    ...for G3/8, I use Zev0's Brow Remover and then  Real Eyebrows for G3F or Ultimate Eyebrows for G8F along with Slosh's UHT+ (also on eyelashes) to better match to the hair colour. Skin Builder 3 & 8 works perfectly fine for my needs and saves me a lot in having to purchase a bunch of characters just to get different skins.

    I also don't work with G8.1 due to the PBR skins and hierarchical materials.

    My mistake Moyen is for G9, yeah I swear by Zev0's brow remover, unfortunately, it won't work with G9 as far as I know.  

    ...give it time, there probably will be one.  

  • SolitarySandpiperSolitarySandpiper Posts: 546

    Daywalker Designs said:

    SolitarySandpiper said:

    PerttiA said:

    marble said:

    SolitarySandpiper said:

    Does clothing no longer conform to the shape of a nipple now that they are a HD morph and not part of the base?

    Did clothing ever conform to nipples? I almost always make a morph for that.

    On G8 it does 

    it does really well on G8 but i'm wondering about G9... i'm doing some testing and of the 5 items i've bought non will conform to a hd nipple... but the free bra that comes with the starter essentials does.

    Check the smoothing parameters on thses clothing items; you should be able to get them to conform.

    a lot of the stuff doesn't come with smoothing modifiers and only has base resolution... the couple of items that do have both hd resolution and smoothing modifiers seem to have no idea that there's a nipple to conform to regardless of any settings i try.

    Also i've noticed that there are breast morphs that don't conform either such as 'breasts fullness lower'

    in fact its easy to see in real time which items are compatable with whichever morph and with all of the purchases i've made so far non are compatable with Hd nipple morphs.

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024

    SolitarySandpiper said:

    a lot of the stuff doesn't come with smoothing modifiers and only has base resolution... the couple of items that do have both hd resolution and smoothing modifiers seem to have no idea that there's a nipple to conform to regardless of any settings i try.

    Also i've noticed that there are breast morphs that don't conform either such as 'breasts fullness lower'

    in fact its easy to see in real time which items are compatable with whichever morph and with all of the purchases i've made so far non are compatable with Hd nipple morphs.

    One can add the smoothing modifier oneself, Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add smoothing (or something similar) just like one can add SubD, Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add Subdivision (or something similar)

  • SolitarySandpiperSolitarySandpiper Posts: 546

    PerttiA said:

    SolitarySandpiper said:

    a lot of the stuff doesn't come with smoothing modifiers and only has base resolution... the couple of items that do have both hd resolution and smoothing modifiers seem to have no idea that there's a nipple to conform to regardless of any settings i try.

    Also i've noticed that there are breast morphs that don't conform either such as 'breasts fullness lower'

    in fact its easy to see in real time which items are compatable with whichever morph and with all of the purchases i've made so far non are compatable with Hd nipple morphs.

    One can add the smoothing modifier oneself, Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add smoothing (or something similar) just like one can add SubD, Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add Subdivision (or something similar)

    i do know about that but i'd be very surprised if items that don't have modifiers will suddenly work when the ones that do have modifiers don't even work!

    At at the moment i've spent the past 13 hrs on the problem and i'm spent... i'd put that time aside to learn the new dforce assistant and the camera magic programs but just thought i'd check the clothing items first just in case there were problems.

    Anyway thanks for the suggestions but i think they need returning.

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024
    edited November 2022

    SolitarySandpiper said:

    PerttiA said:

    SolitarySandpiper said:

    a lot of the stuff doesn't come with smoothing modifiers and only has base resolution... the couple of items that do have both hd resolution and smoothing modifiers seem to have no idea that there's a nipple to conform to regardless of any settings i try.

    Also i've noticed that there are breast morphs that don't conform either such as 'breasts fullness lower'

    in fact its easy to see in real time which items are compatable with whichever morph and with all of the purchases i've made so far non are compatable with Hd nipple morphs.

    One can add the smoothing modifier oneself, Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add smoothing (or something similar) just like one can add SubD, Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add Subdivision (or something similar)

    i do know about that but i'd be very surprised if items that don't have modifiers will suddenly work when the ones that do have modifiers don't even work!

    At at the moment i've spent the past 13 hrs on the problem and i'm spent... i'd put that time aside to learn the new dforce assistant and the camera magic programs but just thought i'd check the clothing items first just in case there were problems.

    Anyway thanks for the suggestions but i think they need returning.

    Have you looked at hidden morphs in the clothing?

    When clothing is fitted to a figure, all the active morphs of the figure are transferred to the clothing (set hidden). One can use these hidden morphs to further adjust how the clothing fits, and if one needs more morphs, dial a morph on the figure to some small value and that morph is transferred to the clothing as well. 

    (removed dupe post)

    Post edited by Cris Palomino on
  • maikdeckermaikdecker Posts: 2,752

    PerttiA said:

    SolitarySandpiper said:

    a lot of the stuff doesn't come with smoothing modifiers and only has base resolution... the couple of items that do have both hd resolution and smoothing modifiers seem to have no idea that there's a nipple to conform to regardless of any settings i try.

    Also i've noticed that there are breast morphs that don't conform either such as 'breasts fullness lower'

    in fact its easy to see in real time which items are compatable with whichever morph and with all of the purchases i've made so far non are compatable with Hd nipple morphs.

    One can add the smoothing modifier oneself, Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add smoothing (or something similar) just like one can add SubD, Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add Subdivision (or something similar)

    did they change something how this setting up for the smoothing works? AFAIK you can only set ONE target for the smoothing modifier for the piece of clothing. So the line would go Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add  smoothing modifier followed by assigning a Collision Target and here one would have to decide between Genesis figure OR the nipples or anything else that's poking through, meaning to make the nipples shine, other parts of the Genesis figure would no longer benefit from the smoothing...

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024

    maikdecker said:

    PerttiA said:

    SolitarySandpiper said:

    a lot of the stuff doesn't come with smoothing modifiers and only has base resolution... the couple of items that do have both hd resolution and smoothing modifiers seem to have no idea that there's a nipple to conform to regardless of any settings i try.

    Also i've noticed that there are breast morphs that don't conform either such as 'breasts fullness lower'

    in fact its easy to see in real time which items are compatable with whichever morph and with all of the purchases i've made so far non are compatable with Hd nipple morphs.

    One can add the smoothing modifier oneself, Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add smoothing (or something similar) just like one can add SubD, Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add Subdivision (or something similar)

    did they change something how this setting up for the smoothing works? AFAIK you can only set ONE target for the smoothing modifier for the piece of clothing. So the line would go Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add  smoothing modifier followed by assigning a Collision Target and here one would have to decide between Genesis figure OR the nipples or anything else that's poking through, meaning to make the nipples shine, other parts of the Genesis figure would no longer benefit from the smoothing...

    No change, one can have only one collision target = Doesn't work that well, if at all when one has geografts.

  • SolitarySandpiperSolitarySandpiper Posts: 546

    PerttiA said:

    SolitarySandpiper said:

    PerttiA said:

    SolitarySandpiper said:

    a lot of the stuff doesn't come with smoothing modifiers and only has base resolution... the couple of items that do have both hd resolution and smoothing modifiers seem to have no idea that there's a nipple to conform to regardless of any settings i try.

    Also i've noticed that there are breast morphs that don't conform either such as 'breasts fullness lower'

    in fact its easy to see in real time which items are compatable with whichever morph and with all of the purchases i've made so far non are compatable with Hd nipple morphs.

    One can add the smoothing modifier oneself, Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add smoothing (or something similar) just like one can add SubD, Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add Subdivision (or something similar)

    i do know about that but i'd be very surprised if items that don't have modifiers will suddenly work when the ones that do have modifiers don't even work!

    At at the moment i've spent the past 13 hrs on the problem and i'm spent... i'd put that time aside to learn the new dforce assistant and the camera magic programs but just thought i'd check the clothing items first just in case there were problems.

    Anyway thanks for the suggestions but i think they need returning.

    Have you looked at hidden morphs in the clothing?

    When clothing is fitted to a figure, all the active morphs of the figure are transferred to the clothing (set hidden). One can use these hidden morphs to further adjust how the clothing fits, and if one needs more morphs, dial a morph on the figure to some small value and that morph is transferred to the clothing as well. 

    (removed dupe post)

    I've tried it on one of the offending items and the hidden morphs are there and like you say they correspond to the body morphs i dialed in but unfortunately they don't work.

  • vrba79vrba79 Posts: 1,357

    Just saw that set of toon adults for G9 that came out. Now that's the kind of thing I'm talking about!

  • ColinFrenchColinFrench Posts: 647

    daveso said:

    Oso3D said:

    There is a dial for 'mouth stickiness' that may be worth turning on or off. It basically, well, makes the lips adhere slightly when close together. This can increase the realism of some expressions, but may interfere with what you are attempting to do.

     

    i was wondering what lip sticky was. I thought maybe when you put on too much lipstick or something.  

    I envisioned a young child eating a chocolate fudge sundae. :-)

  • duckbombduckbomb Posts: 585
    edited November 2022

    I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but the lack of geometry is not simply made up by geografts and normal/displacement maps in all cases.  Yes, in many of the rendering scenarios brought up the end result would be indistinguishable from a model with simply higher res, but the beauty of DS is that it's just one tool that people have the freedom to use however they like or need.  I'm not going to kid myself or anybody here, I know that the way I use it is different from what would be considered the 90%, but to me it's the way that I need to use the tool to get the end product I want.  In the end, I ultimately export a SubD4 OBJ and sculpt on top of that even, so having to include geografts or normals to get the detail back that I was able to add before with a morph is piling effort on top of work.

    I'm just exhausted by reading comments from people who claim to speak on behalf of every use case out there, especially people who also say that they have access to HD morphs and hardly use them.  I've had multiple conversations here over the years about it, and multiple PAs educate me and post examples of HD vs Normals, and I respect their opinions just the same as I understand why it is the way it is.  All I'm asking is acknowledgmenet that for some, the lack of denser geometry is a really big setback.  In the end, it just comes down to the relationship between effort, time, and quality.

    There's ways to make it work, but it's just more work and for some of us a step in the wrong direction. 

     

    Edit:  After reading my post I'm going to edit to reinforce the point that I'm not making any slight against any PA.  I know Oso was in here talking about this, specifically, and I honestly respect his opinion and I've followed closely what he was doing with NPR, so to be direct about it this is not an attack on his opinion or the way he presented it.  I think the frustrating part is that I may be part of a uinique crowd that this decision wasn't made for.  You can't make everyone happy, and honestly the way that I work with DS means I spend very little at this store, so from that perspective DAZ made the right call.  It just doesn't make it less frustrating lol.

    Post edited by duckbomb on
  • Daywalker DesignsDaywalker Designs Posts: 3,586

    duckbomb said:

    I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here, but the lack of geometry is not simply made up by geografts and normal/displacement maps in all cases.  Yes, in many of the rendering scenarios brought up the end result would be indistinguishable from a model with simply higher res, but the beauty of DS is that it's just one tool that people have the freedom to use however they like or need.  I'm not going to kid myself or anybody here, I know that the way I use it is different from what would be considered the 90%, but to me it's the way that I need to use the tool to get the end product I want.  In the end, I ultimately export a SubD4 OBJ and sculpt on top of that even, so having to include geografts or normals to get the detail back that I was able to add before with a morph is piling effort on top of work.

    I'm just exhausted by reading comments from people who claim to speak on behalf of every use case out there, especially people who also say that they have access to HD morphs and hardly use them.  I've had multiple conversations here over the years about it, and multiple PAs educate me and post examples of HD vs Normals, and I respect their opinions just the same as I understand why it is the way it is.  All I'm asking is acknowledgmenet that for some, the lack of denser geometry is a really big setback.  In the end, it just comes down to the relationship between effort, time, and quality.

    There's ways to make it work, but it's just more work and for some of us a step in the wrong direction. 

     

    Edit:  After reading my post I'm going to edit to reinforce the point that I'm not making any slight against any PA.  I know Oso was in here talking about this, specifically, and I honestly respect his opinion and I've followed closely what he was doing with NPR, so to be direct about it this is not an attack on his opinion or the way he presented it.  I think the frustrating part is that I may be part of a uinique crowd that this decision wasn't made for.  You can't make everyone happy, and honestly the way that I work with DS means I spend very little at this store, so from that perspective DAZ made the right call.  It just doesn't make it less frustrating lol.

    I don't think the issue is really mesh density so much as it is the lack of mesh density in certain areas, like the nipples and navel, since Genesis 9 has double the mesh density of G8, according to DAZ themselves. Sure, I'm sure you're not alone in wanting a much denser base mesh, but DAZ has to balance what they want with what a new user may have available as far as hardware goes, and going too dense will make renders take significantly longer than most folks want to spend waiting for an image to complete.

  • Philippi_ChildPhilippi_Child Posts: 648

    My laundry is in the spin cycle......

  • TimbalesTimbales Posts: 2,330

    I can't get a male body that I like the look of. I think the chest area under the breast/pectorals and where they meet in the middle looks too sharply defined by default in comparison to the rest of the muscular anatomy. I'm throwing in the towel for now and will revisit if there are more shaping morphs released that will let me eliminate the issue or let me adjust other individual muscles to balance the definition across other areas. 

  • butterflyfishbutterflyfish Posts: 1,236
    edited November 2022

    Timbales said:

    I can't get a male body that I like the look of. I think the chest area under the breast/pectorals and where they meet in the middle looks too sharply defined by default in comparison to the rest of the muscular anatomy. I'm throwing in the towel for now and will revisit if there are more shaping morphs released that will let me eliminate the issue or let me adjust other individual muscles to balance the definition across other areas. 

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/603561/g9-masculine-chest-smoothing-morph#latest

    Post edited by butterflyfish on
  • Daywalker DesignsDaywalker Designs Posts: 3,586

    butterflyfish said:

    Timbales said:

    I can't get a male body that I like the look of. I think the chest area under the breast/pectorals and where they meet in the middle looks too sharply defined by default in comparison to the rest of the muscular anatomy. I'm throwing in the towel for now and will revisit if there are more shaping morphs released that will let me eliminate the issue or let me adjust other individual muscles to balance the definition across other areas. 

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/603561/g9-masculine-chest-smoothing-morph#latest

    I think he's having problems even with that morph.

  • benniewoodellbenniewoodell Posts: 1,969

    Sigh. I said I wasn't going to buy any G9 characters since IK wasn't fixed as I'm just so tired of having to bring characters into Blender or Maya to be able to animate something so simple as a walk cycle without the feet and legs jittering out of place, or something more in depth like the parkour shot I did in my advanced body mechanics class last semester. But those toon characters that were released today look perfect and exactly what I could use. I'm going to have to pick them up and see how well they transfer into Blender through Diffeo and wait to see how they are in Maya after the Maya Bridge is updated for G9. 

  • SolitarySandpiperSolitarySandpiper Posts: 546

    PerttiA said:

    SolitarySandpiper said:

    PerttiA said:

    SolitarySandpiper said:

    a lot of the stuff doesn't come with smoothing modifiers and only has base resolution... the couple of items that do have both hd resolution and smoothing modifiers seem to have no idea that there's a nipple to conform to regardless of any settings i try.

    Also i've noticed that there are breast morphs that don't conform either such as 'breasts fullness lower'

    in fact its easy to see in real time which items are compatable with whichever morph and with all of the purchases i've made so far non are compatable with Hd nipple morphs.

    One can add the smoothing modifier oneself, Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add smoothing (or something similar) just like one can add SubD, Edit->Figure->Geometry->Add Subdivision (or something similar)

    i do know about that but i'd be very surprised if items that don't have modifiers will suddenly work when the ones that do have modifiers don't even work!

    At at the moment i've spent the past 13 hrs on the problem and i'm spent... i'd put that time aside to learn the new dforce assistant and the camera magic programs but just thought i'd check the clothing items first just in case there were problems.

    Anyway thanks for the suggestions but i think they need returning.

    Have you looked at hidden morphs in the clothing?

    When clothing is fitted to a figure, all the active morphs of the figure are transferred to the clothing (set hidden). One can use these hidden morphs to further adjust how the clothing fits, and if one needs more morphs, dial a morph on the figure to some small value and that morph is transferred to the clothing as well. 

    (removed dupe post)

    Turns out all these offending items are by the same 2 venders (now black listed) and they had the same issue with their Genesis 8 stuff.

    All of my favorite PA's stuff works as expected even when auto fitting Gen8 to Gen9.

  • PadonePadone Posts: 3,681
    edited November 2022

    benniewoodell said:

    I'm going to have to pick them up and see how well they transfer into Blender through Diffeo and wait to see how they are in Maya after the Maya Bridge is updated for G9.

    Again, since G9 is HD based it is harder both to import and use in blender or any other platform. May be the toon figures don't use HD but it would be an exception. Actually G9 imports fine with diffeo for the base jcms and the HD shape via multires, while HD morphs require baking to displacement maps and a whole lot of manual work to make them functional, and displacement doesn't work in eevee.

    To export to blender or other apps G3-G8 is much better than G9.

    Post edited by Padone on
  • SolitarySandpiperSolitarySandpiper Posts: 546

    In the two and a half years i've shopped at daz i'd only returned 2 items... i've just submitted a refund request for my 10th Genesis 9 item!

  • Daywalker DesignsDaywalker Designs Posts: 3,586

    Padone said:

    benniewoodell said:

    I'm going to have to pick them up and see how well they transfer into Blender through Diffeo and wait to see how they are in Maya after the Maya Bridge is updated for G9.

    Again, since G9 is HD based it is harder both to import and use in blender or any other platform. May be the toon figures don't use HD but it would be an exception. Actually G9 imports fine with diffeo for the base jcms and the HD shape via multires, while HD morphs require baking to displacement maps and a whole lot of manual work to make them functional, and displacement doesn't work in eevee.

    To export to blender or other apps G3-G8 is much better than G9.

    It's not HD based; it has a higher base mesh density than G8 and older did. The only things that have HD morphs that load by default are the Navel and the Mouth.

  • xyer0xyer0 Posts: 5,908

    Daywalker Designs said:

    Padone said:

    benniewoodell said:

    I'm going to have to pick them up and see how well they transfer into Blender through Diffeo and wait to see how they are in Maya after the Maya Bridge is updated for G9.

    Again, since G9 is HD based it is harder both to import and use in blender or any other platform. May be the toon figures don't use HD but it would be an exception. Actually G9 imports fine with diffeo for the base jcms and the HD shape via multires, while HD morphs require baking to displacement maps and a whole lot of manual work to make them functional, and displacement doesn't work in eevee.

    To export to blender or other apps G3-G8 is much better than G9.

    It's not HD based; it has a higher base mesh density than G8 and older did. The only things that have HD morphs that load by default are the Navel and the Mouth.

    Padone's definition of "HD based," if I've been paying attention, is something like: "Cannot be used as a convincing naked human without HD." So, yeah, HD based.

  • Gr00vusGr00vus Posts: 371
    edited November 2022

    It seems the point of contention relates more to the g9 base topology than the base resolution.

    Post edited by Gr00vus on
  • KeikuKeiku Posts: 143

    I keep playing around with G9 and V9, and I just can't get on board.

    V9 in particular is great for face renders... But that's it.

    There is no advantages over G8 in my testing. If anything it's much worse: bends are just yuck, fewer surfaces to customise, not much more detail, slower load times (even with out any extra morphs etc compared to a fully weighed down G8 model). Really, they could have just released the V9 morph on G8 with an 8K normal and that would have been better. (again just with my tests so far)

    What am I missing? How can I get more out of G9? Or should I just bag it and stick with G8? I mean there must be a good reason why they made G9, right?

  • SolitarySandpiperSolitarySandpiper Posts: 546

    Keiku said:

    I keep playing around with G9 and V9, and I just can't get on board.

    V9 in particular is great for face renders... But that's it.

    There is no advantages over G8 in my testing. If anything it's much worse: bends are just yuck, fewer surfaces to customise, not much more detail, slower load times (even with out any extra morphs etc compared to a fully weighed down G8 model). Really, they could have just released the V9 morph on G8 with an 8K normal and that would have been better. (again just with my tests so far)

    What am I missing? How can I get more out of G9? Or should I just bag it and stick with G8? I mean there must be a good reason why they made G9, right?

    i feel exactly the same at this point.

    So in the store i'd like to see cool stuff that plays to it's strengths like jewelry, makeup, freckles, face hair, vellus hair, chokers, ruffs, collars, eye patches, food items, food debris, gloves, hats, wrinkles, scars, dirt and dare i say it... blood, sweat and tears! (literally and figuratively) basically anything you can come up with that will look great in a close up portrait of a face.

  • KeikuKeiku Posts: 143

    SolitarySandpiper said:

    i feel exactly the same at this point.

    So in the store i'd like to see cool stuff that plays to it's strengths like jewelry, makeup, freckles, face hair, vellus hair, chokers, ruffs, collars, eye patches, food items, food debris, gloves, hats, wrinkles, scars, dirt and dare i say it... blood, sweat and tears! (literally and figuratively) basically anything you can come up with that will look great in a close up portrait of a face.

    Yes. Most of the content so far hasn't been that stellar either with a couple of strong exceptions. Perhaps G9 should be looked at as a one-trick-pony, used only for those times when you need to get really close to the face. Nothing wrong with that. G8.1 and G9 could sit side by side that way.

  • marblemarble Posts: 7,498

    Keiku said:

    SolitarySandpiper said:

    i feel exactly the same at this point.

    So in the store i'd like to see cool stuff that plays to it's strengths like jewelry, makeup, freckles, face hair, vellus hair, chokers, ruffs, collars, eye patches, food items, food debris, gloves, hats, wrinkles, scars, dirt and dare i say it... blood, sweat and tears! (literally and figuratively) basically anything you can come up with that will look great in a close up portrait of a face.

    Yes. Most of the content so far hasn't been that stellar either with a couple of strong exceptions. Perhaps G9 should be looked at as a one-trick-pony, used only for those times when you need to get really close to the face. Nothing wrong with that. G8.1 and G9 could sit side by side that way.

    The problem is that, very soon, all new content in the store will be for G9 only.

  • KeikuKeiku Posts: 143

    marble said:

    The problem is that, very soon, all new content in the store will be for G9 only.

    Perhaps we can hope for the impossible, and Daz will change it's mind? 

  • SolitarySandpiperSolitarySandpiper Posts: 546

    marble said:

    The problem is that, very soon, all new content in the store will be for G9 only.

    i understand that but i have all the Genesis 8 stuff i could ever need... the problem (for me) is will the genesis 9 stuff live up to my expectations?

    it will need to if Daz wants me to spend anything like what i've been doing for Genesis 8.

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 38,179

    I think it's cool for many reasons

    the higher resolution mesh is the biggest one plus useability in Carrara

    but

    Early adopting is foolish here (and everywhere else for that matter)

    having fun with Morphloader

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