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There's two challenges with stylized stuff:
First, a lot of the stylized look comes from rendering, not the figure. Personally, it kind of squicks me out when I see a photorealistically rendered very toon-like figure, unless the artist works very hard with postwork or lighting to get it to look, well, illustrated.
Second, when someone says something like 'I want anime!' there's a huge chance anything that's offered will get a response of 'not like that.' The problem, obviously, is that 'anime' covers a WILDLY varied range of looks. I mean, are we talking Lupin III, Cyberpunk 2077, One Piece, Ghibli...
So we could get a dozen anime products coming out and a fair number of folks still wouldn't be satisfied.
I mean, personally, there's a few stylized things I have in mind. When I do anthros, though, I tend to lean toward photorealistic because that's my preference ... and I think some other PAs do stylized furries better than me.
For my Genesis 8 "Markers" set I used LIE to do hard lines pretty successfully. With the new "atlas" guide maps that are in the starter product, it's not difficult to create overlay maps. But if you want a truly separate lip surface you can create it in the geometry tool pretty easily - Genesis 9's mesh follows the lip shape well, and it only takes a few clicks to do.
I suggest you go look at how objects are designed in many other arenas.
Details do not, in fact, have to be done in HD or reflected in the mesh at all. Here's an example from ArtStation:
Look at the mesh on the right. Notice how the grooves and fiddly details only loosely follow the mesh, and in some cases don't follow edge flow at ALL. And it looks great.
G9 does not require HD more than any previous generation.
Unless you have prehensile graboid nipples, that detail can easily be handled with Normals. Or, if you really need wildly detailed nipples in super ultra zoomed in view, displacement maps.
G8 topology is just circles around a nipple. That's not 'detailed topology', it's just... round.
Are you talking about Layered Image Editor? As for making a new UV map, I'd have to export the figure into a program I don't know how to use, and manually paint a new UV map, correct?
(deleted double post)
You can use DS to set up the material zones with the geometry editor. No need for external programs.
And yes for LIE, you would need an image editor to make maps that fits with your needs - it will give you a lot more control over your images - sounds like it could be useful to you right? Then you don't have to rely on PAs to make what you want.
@Oso3D Your example is perfect, thank you. The main object features are defined with topology, then normal maps are used for the surface details. You shouldn't use sculpting to define the volumes or the silhouette or the main body features, there's topology for that. Indeed retopology is a good part of sculpting, you first sculpt then retopology. The basic idea is that you should use geometry + normal maps. If you need HD displacement maps to define the figure volumes and silhouette then it means you failed at topology, that's what G9 does.
edit. note. Then may be they did it on purpose because only PAs can do HD morphs, that's marketing strategy but harms normal users. Again one possible solution for G9 would be if DAZ makes the HD toolkit available to anyone.
It looks like LIE will have to be the way to go, I just can't seem to get the knack of the geometry selection tool, are there templates for this thing, or do I need to draw over one of the preexisting maps?
I do think that LIE will give you great results - you'll be able to control the zones exactly the way you want instead of being limited by the zones in the figure. If you look in the developer tools for G9 there's a set of overlays called G9 Feminine Landmarks Overlay, same for the masculine shapes. Its for sculpting but I think its also a good overlay for maps to show where the lips are etc. Apply it to your figure, look under surfaces where the texture map is located on your drive and then open that with your image editor. You can then overlay it over images or use it to draw your own lines.
I have to leave for babysitting duties but I'll be back later today.
The product must be displayed and advertised for customers who have interest, even if other customers pass the product.
I'm no modeller but what you say makes a lot of sense to me. The fact that HD is proprietary (unlike Normal Maps) seems to make G9 a gift to PAs in that it forces customers to buy the nicely sculpted characters rather than make their own. For a lot of us, that's the way it has always been - as I said, I am not a modeller - but I can understand how people who like to be more creative might wish that HD tools were available to all. I guess they could work with Normal maps - I just don't know the technicalities.
For myself, G8 had a long innings with a great variety of characters, clothing, morphs and skins which amounted to a heavy investment. I just can't afford to start over with a new figure so I will skip this one and wait to see what happens when DS5 is released - maybe that will open the doors to models we have not yet dreamed of (or have, but they have been denied us).
Thank you! This is actually helpful. The "atlas" actually looks like a good cheat sheet, moreso than the usual UV templates I'm used to seeing. My first go looks promising. I'll need to play around with it some more.
With a little oversaturated lighting and some light postwork, the "atlas cheat sheet" method Mada tuned me into feels like it could be a viable solution. Custom eyeballs were easy enough to figure out. Black circle in a gradient colored against a solid color. Just needed one of the existing eye maps for the sake of proper positioning.
Thank you again, Mada.
In fact, I think that NPR shaders that I had never managed to work properly in other figures probably with G9 will actually work (I’m still in testing stage, but the first ones are promising). The NPR is wide enough so it cannot be assured that it is ruined for all of us with this figure.
Of course, I do not doubt that for other people it is not an ideal figure, but it is not a reality for 100% of NPR possibilities.
Awesome - that is great news :) I'm glad there was a solution!
I understand how daunting it can be to have to learn a bunch of new stuff when you just want to focus on your imagery! So I made a little freebie kit to get you started on creating things without having to struggle to line up your landmarks too much.
Here's the link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yLCXDcQfB6fsLYHUw7g75eN8GfgJEjL9/view?usp=sharing
Here's what's in it:
First example - with normal map
Second example - without normal map and run through a denoiser post rendering, for a toonier look
yea so it basically cancels itself out. higher mesh density but bad topology = same overall detail as G8 (?). either way, we're damned without the HD morph creation tool.
normal maps can't always replace HD. I need to sculpt animatable morphs like custom FACS wrinkles for example. Another use for HD is when you are 3d printing high detail miniatures.
I guess i gotta turn PA!
Thanks again. Sometimes all you need is that one piece of information to go on. Rather then feeling super frustrated like I was earlier, I actually feel like this is a figure I could use in the future, given the right character morphs are released for it!
@Canary3d That's awesome!
Not my thing, but VERY cool for you to make for the people that need it :).
i hope someone with a YouTube channel can do some tutorials about how to use the layered image editor and how to create useful masks like lip masks in Photoshop... i want to learn and I've tried to get my head around it all this past couple of weekends but I'm in need of instruction.
I used the lip zone all the time. Yes, they look utterly terrible if you don't use them right, but putting gloss on the lips and then using a diffuse overlay to add color with a mask that breaks up the line like some makeup products do, worked perfectly. Same for nipples on the body and makeup on the face. Now you can't use eyeshadow and lipstick at the same time without going to either a single color or LIE, and LIE is a bad option because you don't have fine control. Only real option now are geoshells.
I find the biggest problems with stytlized are the choice of materials and the style itself. You need a basic style that has a clear personality and I find that one of the fastest ways to get around the uncanny valley is to make the character look a little doll like. I normally manage that by making the skin look intentionally either like a painted porcelain doll or a latex display figure and make the hair look little plastic and doll-like (there are a couple shaders on the market that are perfect for this). They're very subtle touches but they toss up just enough sense of unreality to make them NOT squick people out.
One of my biggest bug-bears with G3+ is there were no really solid "toon skin" resources like DG's pack for G2F or the old Subsurface Toon Shader for G1 which sadly was 3DS only but had a really nice effect.
Thank you.
Never thought of that. That explains the navel and nipples desaster, too.
Can understand completely, and I am somewhat in the same boat in that regards. I would have about 15 years worth of 3D collected content both free and bought, a lot of which I have not used yet. Not sure what it is about the release of G9, that is making me think long and hard about my content buying patterns.
But whatever it is I don't see myself going hammer and tong into a new base character product line right now, and will probably just wait it out, and as you said it will be interesting to see what DS5 is like whenever it decides to drop.
I must be missing something - what does navel and nipples have to do with ARKIT? :)
...spot on.
The bottom line for me is the "bottom line", which is basically the cost of adopting a brand new generation as I tend to custom design characters of my own (I rarely use a character straight out of the box save for ones like Aiko 3 and toon characters). In order to do that, it requires purchasing a large library of resource and utility content which seriously adds up. Being on a fixed pension I don't jump at every new shiny that comes down the pike unless I actually have a need or use for it.
One of the other "gripes" people have is once a new gneration appears, the past one is pretty much abandoned.G3 and G8 have probably the mot commonality in UV and mesh betwenethe two and there are conversion scripts that go in both directions. The interesting part is for G3 I also have the Wear them All clones which allows me to autofit ffrom G8 all the way back to gen3. This keeps a good segment of my library viable.when using G3. This is the type of versatility I need.
ETA:
Reading through posts about mesh density, texture size, LIE masks and such being involved only reinforces my decision to stay at the station and let this one go by. Particularly so when it comes to the resolution of the textures themselves. I am working on an over a decade old system (talking DDR3 memory and PCIe 2.0 here) which grumbles at even having to deal with 4K textures, let alone 8K. The seemingly greater complexity and load on system resources is another reason I let the train leave without me as it will take a reasonable windfall to afford a system upgrade capable of dealing with all this, which further impacts that bottom line mentioned above.
1#: Constructive critic is only possible if someone intends to use a product. If one would rather use the products they already own, but see them updated, while being able to going on to use their own content without having to buy all the "tools" to adapt old stuff to "new and improved" stuff the only constructive critic would be "don't do a new figure, but adjust the old one" which, as obvious, isn't an option here, with a figure that is built to not to be compatible to old content without having to jump through loops. Yes, I know that some stuff CAN be adapted by objectifying, exporting, importing etc. etc. but that fullfils the "jumping through hoops" criterium for me.
And from one POV some PAs are indeed "shilling" for G9, as it's in their personal and financial best interest to have this new, non-compatible figure. There ARE PAs whose main income comes from producing copies of their products with small adaptation for new Generation. There are also those, who do the products needed to do the adaptation of stuff for new Generations. Don't tell me that at least these PAs have any reason to shill for a new generation to secure their jobs Others see the advantages THEY have when producing new and cool stuff, due to the new figure being easier on their workflow... but on the other side they miss that every new figure needs the average user to adjust their workflow too and compared to PAs probably with a lot less information and guidance, because of the lack of a real manual...
2#: Didn't see that post you mention, so, sorry to Oso3D...
3#: But G9 IS more costly... we will have to buy a lot of stuff we have for previous Generations again to continue using the stuff we already have paid for. And that example with "free samples" is although a bit weird... because it's not really free samples, but more "Here is a free steak. To really enjoy it, you have of course to buy the adjusted plate, knife and fork to eat it. The plate, fork and knife you already own won't work for that. And of course you also need a bigger table to put the new plate on, because we made the plate a lot bigger..."
And we have a number of reasons for not being too fond of the new Generation... there's "I don't need". "I can't afford..", "I don't like certain aspects.." and "I basically like it, but not the way it is done.." which get all thrown into one pot here, though. But that's okay, because for nearly all of the people complaining about G9 there is the one and only easy solution: Don't use, don't buy...
And again: "bashing" is depending a lot on the personal standpoint. And I will not comment moderation on this forum in any way.