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Thanks, Phil, your comment is much appreciated. I was just about to call it a day and was about to post a last picture of this evening's work. That's below. I finally found the Hexagon thread I began in 2015. Since this vehicle keeps being resurrected I hope it hasn't become ultra boring to those who saw it multiple times before.
The Hexagon thread is below for any new modeller who might be interested but nothing has been added to it for nearly a year.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/54998/a-military-vehicle-i-started-work-on/p1
Bravo Marcus! Like it... engine looks really good.
I look forward to seeing it as it progresses.
Thanks, John.
I took a quick look back at the Hexagon thread and it reminded me that my plan for this model was to put in a lot of detail. But almost all of it is simply based on cubes and cylinders. A (not close-up) nut or bolt is made from a cylinder and a row of bolts, for example, adds a lot to the impression of detail.
There is a lot in the model that I wish I could do more neatly/cleanly (in the way the shipping container was done earlier in the thread by TabascoJack) but I'm trying now to get it finished for better or worse.
I do everything by eye from reference pictures but I never put references or blueprints into the scene. So the point I'm getting to is the final assembly of all the parts. That's why you see half-bits floating around (such as axles); I need to duplicate these with symmetry, place them at the correct width and then weld or bridge the two halves into one piece. With Hexagon you can freeze items once they are placed correctly.
The chassis should fit ok within the bodyshell and I've given enough clearance so far of the floor above the transmission and so on but I will still likely be tearing my hair out with poke-through of parts and will need to re-scale some bits probably.
One of my aims with this model was to 3d paint it in Carrara but I can't see it ever being textured, there are so many parts to UV unfold.
But that is all part of the learning. I think in future I would build something like this from multiple projects - the outer shell would be one project and the engine another and so on.
The beauty of making any part for any model is that it can be re-used or adapted in another project. I have a few ideas to follow on from this one.
My Critter now has a red version... black version done except for tweaking a shader or two. Main body was designed from a single 2d square... later when adding the legs and arms I needed more geometry so increased smoothing to 1 and chose Convert so each poly became 4 polys... and starting at the back legs I first created a path so sweep then copied/pasted and rotated it for the the opposing side. Worked so well I made more copies for the mid and front legs. Reason the back legs are rather skinny is a very small poly was used for Path Sweep compared to the front 4 legs which are located on a much larger poly... I even used Extract Along to get a smaller poly size... as you can see I didn't make them small enough. Note that the legs only have 4 sides... cranked up to smoothing at 2 they look round.
On I plunder... created a new sweep path for each of those and more use of Extract Along. First side came out fairly close to the front leg size. Other side was waay too big... took a few tries to get it close to the other side... I had to mess with the path since it wasn't rotated enough away from the head... also had to adjust both paths as they didn't work right... then I discovered why there were too many points, vertices ?, some where on top of each other so I adjusted them... I'm thinking now "why didn't I just weld them"... oh well done deal.
Moving on to the claws I decided to use Double Sweep for each of the 4 since I wanted tapered ends. I'd only used it once when PhilW showed how to use it earlier in this thread HERE. Problem I had was trying to use 2 paths and a filled poly... Won't work... don't even try. So I copied the poly and un-filled it...and used only that... Eureka it worked this time. So I proceed to weld it to the rest of the Extruded polys of the model in order to have only one Polymesh again. This created a blue creased ring of polylines....even stranger trying to select and smooth them, repeatedly, had no effect so I decided I'd just have to push on.
Starting with the eyes I used Extract Along again and just moved the extracted parts outward for a bit of a bulge... after rendering them they were too rectangular, not round.... so selected the outermost ring of polylines and creased both sides to make them round. Now the horns... I used Extract Along twice for each side and move those up making them smaller. The mouth... yes it could use a bit of work to make it not so round, more elongated.
Had I not broken symmetry early on in main body design many things could have been done in half the time. You've got no Idea how many times I've thought "Oh Symmetry, How I Miss Thee".
Not another problem... Yes of course. Shader Domains... As I went along I named polygons, and lucky I did, I'd selected each name and assigned it's polys to a domain Off I rushed to apply the shaders I'd created for each and then a quick render. Whaaat... it rendered as all one colour... now what? Thanks to dionede's suggestions as to why I got that straightened out... I'd neglected a few polys here and there... so selected my polygon names, selected the neglected ones, renamed polygons and shader domains again to the same name. Presto Chango... they all worked again after using the Model tab for shader domains. Results are below in first pic.
Modeling in Carrara is funnnnn!
John, your critters are looking good. Nice use of the polyline tools in the modeler. Keep up the good work.
Here is a handy way to restore symmetry. It assumes that you have some vertexes at x=0.
(save first, just in case something goes wrong)
Delete the half of your object that you don't like.
Select the plane of the working box that you want to do symmetry across. Can select within the box along the left side menu.
Send the working box to the edge of your model by using control-left-click to move the working box to a vertex on the x=0 part of your model.
Use duplicate with symmetry and the modeler will ask if you want to weld the result. Note - your answer to this might depend on how close your vertexes are together relative to the default tolerance. You can always custom weld after an undo if you get bad results the first time.
Remember to use the view menu to reset the workng box.
Symmetry should work again.
It is a little hard to describe so I have attached screen shots fom jj01a up to jj10a. There is no 02 because there is a 01a and an 01b.
diomede, Thanks for your compliments and encouragement. I'm just happy to have created my second figure... with all the mistakes made I learned quite a lot about how to make the next one better and easier.
I'd put Carrara to bed and was headed there myself when I say your post... just had to wake up Carrara and follow your instructions. Accomplished! Thanks for reminding me that the tiny backstop icon box selects which grid I'm working on... been quite some time since I used it last... Carrara 4, 5 or 6 Pro. Glad you pointed out what Ctrl+Click is for... too many times I've hit Ctrl instead of Alt or Shift +Click... took awhile before finding the correct selection to Reset the Working Box last year.
As useful as symmetry is I would have been better off to load an earlier version I'd saved. Even if it was misaligned a bit I could have selected all the center polylines and used the scale tool to align them so their poisitions would match. Perhaps if I have nothing to do, unlikely, I'll give that a try just to experiment... Naa... think I'll wait til next time I mess it up.
Just thinking about UVs:
- if most parts have been developed from cubes or cylinders, you may find the UV mapping is not too bad as it is;
- you can use the default mappings for each part and they may be good enough (Box face, Cylindrical and Spherical)
- if you are just looking to use it in Carrara, you may be able to get away with not UV mapping at all, you can define separate shader domains for each material and just use flat or procedural 3D shaders for those. You only really need UV maps if you are using image maps or applying 2D textures.
- Provided there is some form of UV mapping on there, you can use 3D paint. The mapping does not have to be elegant to use that, as long as there is a map and not everythng is bunched up in a corner or otherwise unusable.
Just a few thoughts!
Hi Phil,
I started working again on the model a short while ago and then popped in here and saw your advice. I think I will try to do as you advise and will re-visit your tutorial course videos on the subject first.
One of the issues is that I duplicated many parts such as bolts, wheels and so on. I seem to remember reading that UV unwrapping should be done for an item before it is duplicated, otherwise a fresh map needs to be made for each duplicate piece. However, things like bolt-heads are small enoughto use procedural textures on. The main parts the bolts are fitted to could be 3d painted so that dirt and rust-streaks could run from the bolts. This model is actually a drab olive-green all over, so there isn't much to paint apart from a few markings.
The whole idea of working further on the interior is actually just an exercise in futility because, like most of the engine, it will never be seen unless I make a new body shell with opening doors and engine hatches and take into account (for size) suitable figures - which I will never do on this model. But the work done has been useful, I suppose for future endeavours.
I had a short video of the turret parts being put together and one idea for the interior and the rest of the model was to show the same being done bit by bit - all for no particular reason.
Here is the video link (its a short piece):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2NArCtLRhg
Since the start of this piece I was aware that the proportions of what I was making differ from the proportions of the real thing.
The real thing sits higher, on proportionally smaller wheels and the body is deeper (from top to bottom). The turret is also bigger in scale than I have done. The actual vehicle isn't fully symmetrical either, when seen from the front - but I chose symmetry rather than have it look as though I modelled it carelessly - there are mistakes enough!
All these differences are going to come home to roost when I assemble the different main structures I've built (eg the interior I've begun needs the body shell to have the proportions of the real thing and that isn't going to work well as things stand).
So, the decision is to just assemble what can be seen, including the underside, and forget the interior for this model.
Really nice video! And great work on the whole thing, whether or not it exactly matches reality (you could always say that it was "inspired by" a real one, that gives lots of latitude!).
Hi thanks again, Phil!
Well, in spite of what I was saying about abandoning the interior, I found that with a few adjustments I could get a decent fit. The driver is supposed to see through a hatch I haven't made yet and the seat was way below where it would need to be. But with some fiddling around I now have a good fit.
I just took a copy of the project to play with and ruin if need be. Here are some more pictures of this first try at fitting things together. (Also I started to use it as a 'concept' project as you will see from the version with three seats. It's a good thing no-one is on my back to get it finished!)
Just saw the video. Excellent work, Marcus Severus. I am going through some rigging tutorials now for Studio. Hope to be able to rig wheels to the steering wheel, etc., but can only dream of having a model as detailed as yours.
You are far too modest, Diomede.
You've been giving so much in the way of examples and advice and providing links that just about everyone who comes to the Carrara forum is in your debt.
The model I'm doing is thanks to good references I found bit by bit over time. But the details are mostly bluff! A raised edge here and a bolt or two there - they are in the references but are mostly achieved by flattened cylinders or cubes with edges pulled around. The little video gives it away!
Thank you very much!
I'm finally diving into Carrara box modeling, and could really use some pointers. I'm doing decently well with tips from here and other threads.
I'm kind of wondering about the whole UV mesh/painting thing, though... does Carrara do 3d painting? If not, any free stuff that might help? Eep?
I usually do all the big work in Daz Studio, but obviously Daz has no modeling. I can break up material zones and whatnot. But complex figure makes for really confusing UV.
Here's where I am with current experiment. It's at only 12k polygons right now, going to up that once I am happy with the detail. Did experimental rigging, got some ideas on how to tweak the limbs a little more. Debating moving the limbs into a more natural rest position -- I had put them in current weird position to facilitate rigging.
Hello again Will,
For box modeling I watched a cool head tutorial recently but can't find it today. Here is one for modeling a hand in Maya, don't let that bother you, modeling is modeling. Fast and efficient 3D modeling tutorial for the human hand. After watching this I can do the same in Carrara'a Vertex Modeler.
Did you happen to see diomede's My Project: Brash Lonergan adventures 3D figure creation.
[edited to add the link for human hand modeling - 1/27/2017]
Good start. The lessons on modeling and uvmapping that you can find in this forum will help if you model in Carrara, Hexagon, or any other program.
Yes, Carrara can do uvs and do 3d painting. I have Carrara 8.5 Pro, but I don't remember whether or not the non-pro version has 3d paint, or in which version 3d paint was introduced. The first page of this thread gathers links to a lot of information related to modeling. (Good job, wgdjohn!)
In addition to the general links up front, here is an example of modeling a post for a balcony using the vertex modeler. I started with a sphere instead of a box, but the ideas are similar. First comment of several starts here.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/1677766/#Comment_1677766
Unfortunately, I have an example of using the seams/unfold method of uvmapping an object shaped like the post much further down. First comment of several starts here.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/1798806/#Comment_1798806
Here is an example of using Carrara's 3d paint tool on a Daz prop that has already been uvmapped by the vendor. First comment of several starts here.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/1684701/#Comment_1684701
Here is an example of using the vertex modeler to create a coffin to fit a Daz figure that has already been placed in a scene. First comment of several starts here.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/1685186/#Comment_1685186
Creating shader domains and uvmappng the coffin start here.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/1685756/#Comment_1685756
wgdjohn, I think we were writing at the same time. Your link to the Maya tutorial for a hand did not appear. Thanks for the shout out for Brash.
One more note regarding creating original figures. Poser, Studio, and Carrara have their own rigging systems. If you are going to be creating your custom figure for use in Studio, then there are a few extra steps that you will want to do in whichever modeler that you choose. Primarily, this involves the naming of polygon groups, which is distinct from naming material zones or shader domains. Rigging in Carrara does not require first dividing the mesh into separate polygon zones, but Studio does.
To create and name a polygon group in Carrara, select the desired polygons, and then go to the top menu and use SELECT : NAME : POLYGONS. Your names should match the rigging that you intend to use in Studio. For example, if you are making a humanoid figure and want to use Studio pose assets, then use the same bodypart names, such as rHand and lFoot.
I've been using the geometry editor in Daz (which I'm more familiar with than Carrara at this point) for dividing zones, but good to see the functionality here, too. And I have Carrara pro, so definitely be poking at that list.
Among other things, I also have to figure out how to unwrap the UV mesh, since it's complex and organic.
Can I unwrap/paint an object that has rigging, or should I really get UV squared away first?
Ok, very confused until I realized the 3dpaint wasn't part of the Shader work area. That's... weird. ;)
At least it's there, even if it is in a strange place. It is a bit rudimentary to be honest, fine for simple stuff, but if you are going to be doing a lot, there are better tools around dedicated to the task.
The better tools all cost jaw-dropping amounts of money or require months of training, so... I'll make do. ;)
I don't know that you have to, but I would recommend that you get your model the way you want it before bothering to rig it. During uvmapping and texturing, you may discover that you might want to make a few changes to the mesh, including adding or deleting polygons. If so, you don't want to lose any rigging information that you had worked on.
I agree wholeheartedly.
I ran across this when doing my shipping container in blender. I finished rigging in Daz and realized I had missed something in the UV mapping. Had to go back, remap, re-export, and re-rig. Not the end of the world, but still a pain.
I'm finding I REALLY enjoy using Carrara's modeler far more than others I've attempted. First, I like having camera and other controls both right there to the left of the UI, and having them pop up if I right-click. Second, I REALLY appreciate having the camera controls center on whatever I have selected.
Took me a half day to pick up on BTW. duh. (I knew about Loop already)
You can use the Transfer Utility (Edit->Object) in Studio to update the geometry without losing the rigging. Doesn't always work, but 7 times out of 10 . . . Saved me an awful lot of re-rigging! No matter how much you think your mesh is finished, there's always SOMETHING you need to fix at the last minute!
It is really worth learning the keyboard shortcuts for camera movements (basically use the Alt key with mouse movements), then you are not having to go back and forth between the tool you are using and the camera controls.
Even though it came up in another thread, I think I will post a walk-through for using the ruled surfaces tool to model a wall section with a doorway and a window. Seems to fit the modeling thread. This could be done with a grid, but I I just want to use the ruled surfaces tool, plus it results in a lower polygon start.
I am going to make a wall that is 10 feet high and 13 feet wide. It is going to have a doorway that is 3 feet wide and 7 feet high. It is going to have a window that is 3 feet wide and 4 feet high, and that start 4 feet above the ground. You could start with a grid that is 13 polygon wide (14 points 1 foot apart) and 10 polygons high (11 points 1 foot apart). You could then cut out the door and the window, and then add thickness. However, the resulting mesh would be much more dense than necessary.
Instead, I insert a vertex object. In the modeling room, I check the "snap to grid" option and go to the front camera. I select the polyline tool. Along the bottom of the grid I place the first point at the left corner of the wall. The second point goes at the bottom left corner of the doorway. The next point goes at the bottom right corner of the doorway. The next point goes along the bottom directly below where the left corner of the window will be. The next point goes directly below where the right corner of the window will be. The last point goes where the right corner of the wall is. The base polyline is finished so hit enter to accept.
The next steps are to copy the polyline upwards. Do this by using duplicate or (control D) each time you want a copy. Move the first copy up four feet to where the bottom of the window is (remember snap to grid is on to make this movement easier). Duplicate or Control D again and move this second copy up three more feet (7 total) to the top of the doorway. Dupliate again and move 1 more foot (8 total) to the top of the window. Duplicate one last time and move 2 more feet (10 total) to the top of the wall.
You now have a set of polylines that define the surface of the wall. The ruled surface tool is on the drop down menu to the furthest right of the vertex modeling menu. Click the ruled surface tool and follow the directions in the righthand properties box. The directions tell you to select the polylines. Start at the bottom and click on your polylines in ascending order. The wall will progress with each clicked line. At the top, hit enter to finish. Now double click a polygon to select the whole wall and move it forward. You will see the polylines left behind. Select and delete those.
You now have a relatively low res plane and you can delete the door and the window. Add thickness and uvmap and you are good to go.
The more traditional method would be to insert a14 by 11 grid and then delete the doors and windows. That is fine, but it results in more polygons. Not that big of a deal in this example but wanted to show the ruled surfaces tool. Here is the traditional grid method. Similar result.