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Ghost Lights - What's happening, and what's next.

KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,264
edited February 2022 in The Commons

Hey Gang,

A few people have reached out to see what's going on with ghost lights going forward, so i thought i'd throw up a quick thread to explain where i'm going with it. I'm going to temporarily take down all of my ghost light sets and update them asap, and they will function exactly as they have done previously, unless i uncover any nasty gremlins. Here's an ON/OFF comparison in the newest build, using the traditional low opacity ghost lights....

You can achieve this by using a cutout opacity of 0.0000001 and a luminanace value of 1000000000.0. I set the luminanace units to cd/cm^2. With this in mind, it won't be a huge upheaval to make older IGL kits work normally again, you'll just have to bare with me while i get them all back through QA.

Another methodology that has arisen because of this iray update, it matte lighting. You've probably seen this in other threads, there's even a super handy script by Jag11 here. I actually really like this method, but a downside of its usage is that you'll still see the light mesh in reflections, and i'm not entirely sure there's a workaround to this. You do get a nice glossy effect though, and they work really well with the new VDBs.

Anyway, i just wanted to post an update to make sure my IGLK customers know that i'm working on updates as quickly as i can. I'll also get around to updating the tutorial thread with all of the different lighting methods in plain english so everyone's catered for. If you have questions, post them below and i'll keep looking in.

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Post edited by KindredArts on
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Comments

  • James_HJames_H Posts: 1,044

    Thanks very much for the update

  • PaintboxPaintbox Posts: 1,633

    Your work is top notch, thanks for the update Kindred Arts!

  • benniewoodellbenniewoodell Posts: 1,982

    Thank you so much for the update on what's happening, it's very much appreciated! 

  • JabbaJabba Posts: 1,460

    Marvelous... I had my fingers crossed that updates would be in the works.  Cheers

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,392

    Is the fix to get the old ghost lights working just a simple matter of increasing the luminence value by a very large number (ie something like adding 6 or 7 zeros), or were other fixes needed too?

     

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,264

    Havos said:

    Is the fix to get the old ghost lights working just a simple matter of increasing the luminence value by a very large number (ie something like adding 6 or 7 zeros), or were other fixes needed too?

     

     Yes that really is it, use my value combinations in the post above. We have to move back to using opacity values though, rather than black maps in the cutout channel.

  • HylasHylas Posts: 5,065

    So all we have to do is sit back and all your existing ghost light products will be updated to be compatible with the latest version of IRAY... it just might take a while?

    Thank you! That's real customer service! laugh

  • vagansvagans Posts: 422

    Thank you! Looking forward to the updates as I just moved to 4.20 Daz Studio tonight.

  • arks0ngarks0ng Posts: 273

    Thanks KA! I adore your products and was worried I'd have to stay with the previous build to keep using them, so it's awesome to hear you'll be updating them :D

  • Jason GalterioJason Galterio Posts: 2,562

    These are my go to interior lights, so I think I will be holding off updating until things get resolved.

    Thanks KA!

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,264

    arks0ng said:

    Thanks KA! I adore your products and was worried I'd have to stay with the previous build to keep using them, so it's awesome to hear you'll be updating them :D

     Oh this reminds me actually, when i do update these it's going to make them not work properly in the older builds. If you're clinging to older builds for whatever reason, you're going to need to back up the current version. I can't get something QA'd for two different builds so i'm a bit limited on options. You will still be able to just change the values back though, it's not a huge change.

  • Griffin AvidGriffin Avid Posts: 3,765

    Maybe then, just release them as a new(er) product.

    And have them say, the originals work in Daz.XXX and this new Ghost Lights 2.0 is for Daz new release DAZ.XXXX and above. 

    What happens if I open an Old Scene- built using the old lights? 

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,392

    KA, if you know anything about scripting you might want to include a script that multiples the luminence of a selected ghost light by 1 divided by the opacity value (eg 0.01 means multiply by 100). This would allow people to adjust the ghost lights of existing scenes to be compatible with 4.20. I doubt it would render exactly the same as 4.15 and earlier, but it should be pretty close.

  • Fae3DFae3D Posts: 2,613

    Thank you so much!  I use your Iray Ghost Lights Kit in almost every render I make.  I will not be upgrading to the new Daz Studio until your updates are done, for that reason.  I really appreciate how much you're helping your customers out!

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,264

    Griffin Avid said:

    Maybe then, just release them as a new(er) product.

    And have them say, the originals work in Daz.XXX and this new Ghost Lights 2.0 is for Daz new release DAZ.XXXX and above. 

    What happens if I open an Old Scene- built using the old lights? 

    This is also an option. I've learned a lot in the past six years since the original ghost light set so i could probably just scratch make a new set and give a 90% discount to the original owners so people can pick up the new versions for around a dollar. So the older builds will stay in your catalogues unchanged, and you can have the never builds on hand should you want them.

    It's a bit tricky to know what the correct course is at the moment. 

  • KindredArtsKindredArts Posts: 1,264

    Havos said:

    KA, if you know anything about scripting you might want to include a script that multiples the luminence of a selected ghost light by 1 divided by the opacity value (eg 0.01 means multiply by 100). This would allow people to adjust the ghost lights of existing scenes to be compatible with 4.20. I doubt it would render exactly the same as 4.15 and earlier, but it should be pretty close.

    Its a good concept, but I think the problem i'm going to run into is getting something QA'd for older builds, they don't generally allow for that. Plus some of my IGL sets use black maps instead of cutout values, so scripting something universal would get a bit messy. Ultimately i'm either going to have to leave the legacy builds in peoples catalogues and develop new sets at a steep discount for older customers, or just update the old sets and risk breaking old saves etc.

  • PaintboxPaintbox Posts: 1,633

    KindredArts said:

    Griffin Avid said:

    Maybe then, just release them as a new(er) product.

    And have them say, the originals work in Daz.XXX and this new Ghost Lights 2.0 is for Daz new release DAZ.XXXX and above. 

    What happens if I open an Old Scene- built using the old lights? 

    This is also an option. I've learned a lot in the past six years since the original ghost light set so i could probably just scratch make a new set and give a 90% discount to the original owners so people can pick up the new versions for around a dollar. So the older builds will stay in your catalogues unchanged, and you can have the never builds on hand should you want them.

    It's a bit tricky to know what the correct course is at the moment. 
     

    I would personally favour this option. This keeps older versions of DAZ and scenes working as is (many still work with older DAZ versions in production) and I really don't mind buying a new set for a new version when / if I switch. 

  • khorneV2khorneV2 Posts: 147

    thanks for updating, those sets are almost essential

  • maikdeckermaikdecker Posts: 2,752

    KindredArts said:

    Griffin Avid said:

    Maybe then, just release them as a new(er) product.

    And have them say, the originals work in Daz.XXX and this new Ghost Lights 2.0 is for Daz new release DAZ.XXXX and above. 

    What happens if I open an Old Scene- built using the old lights? 

    This is also an option. I've learned a lot in the past six years since the original ghost light set so i could probably just scratch make a new set and give a 90% discount to the original owners so people can pick up the new versions for around a dollar. So the older builds will stay in your catalogues unchanged, and you can have the never builds on hand should you want them.

    It's a bit tricky to know what the correct course is at the moment. 

    Getting a new version while being able to to keep the old version is probably the most favourable option for everybody, who knows how the IT world works... never discard the old things, as they are bound to come in handy in the future wink

     

  • PaulaDeggPaulaDegg Posts: 41

    I`m happy to pay for new ones, I use them pretty much all the time, so I`m lost without them.

    I just hope Marshian updates or relases a new version of the Tenebroso lights as well.

     

  • akmerlowakmerlow Posts: 1,124

    I still use DS 4.8 and 4.15

    So gonna need older versions intact. Though, the ones i had now removed from the store, huh.

  • LeanaLeana Posts: 11,809

    akmerlow said:

    Though, the ones i had now removed from the store, huh.

    They’re still in your purchases, just not sold anymore to new customers.
  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,392

    KindredArts said:

    Havos said:

    KA, if you know anything about scripting you might want to include a script that multiples the luminence of a selected ghost light by 1 divided by the opacity value (eg 0.01 means multiply by 100). This would allow people to adjust the ghost lights of existing scenes to be compatible with 4.20. I doubt it would render exactly the same as 4.15 and earlier, but it should be pretty close.

    Its a good concept, but I think the problem i'm going to run into is getting something QA'd for older builds, they don't generally allow for that. Plus some of my IGL sets use black maps instead of cutout values, so scripting something universal would get a bit messy. Ultimately i'm either going to have to leave the legacy builds in peoples catalogues and develop new sets at a steep discount for older customers, or just update the old sets and risk breaking old saves etc.

    Existing ghost lights will just be props with particular emissive values set via their surface properties stored in the scene file. Once a ghost light is added and tweaked it has no reliance on the existence of anything other than the data defintions of the props in your sets, the properties would not change because those props have changed. 

    I am pretty sure that unless you have changed the geometry of your props in some way (unlikely), then a new version would not break any existing scenes. The only issue would be people adding new ghost lights to scenes using older DS versions. They are going to lit up like the sun.

  • HavosHavos Posts: 5,392
    edited February 2022

    Paintbox said:

    KindredArts said:

    Griffin Avid said:

    Maybe then, just release them as a new(er) product.

    And have them say, the originals work in Daz.XXX and this new Ghost Lights 2.0 is for Daz new release DAZ.XXXX and above. 

    What happens if I open an Old Scene- built using the old lights? 

    This is also an option. I've learned a lot in the past six years since the original ghost light set so i could probably just scratch make a new set and give a 90% discount to the original owners so people can pick up the new versions for around a dollar. So the older builds will stay in your catalogues unchanged, and you can have the never builds on hand should you want them.

    It's a bit tricky to know what the correct course is at the moment. 
     

    I would personally favour this option. This keeps older versions of DAZ and scenes working as is (many still work with older DAZ versions in production) and I really don't mind buying a new set for a new version when / if I switch. 

    If you upgrade to 4.20 then your old scenes using ghost lights will be broken regardless of whether or not there is an older version of the product still in the store. The advantage of keeping the older version is simply to allow people still on 4.16 and below to add new ghost lights to their scenes using the product. The new product will assign far higher luminence values to the ghost lights, and as such these would need to be edited before it could be used in older versions.

    The reason I suggested to KA about having a script to change the older luminence strengths to the new ones needed by 4.20 is simply a convienence for existing users to update their scene files to be 4.20 compatible. Of course you can edit these values yourself even without the script, just be prepared that your "0" key will be getting a lot of use.

    Post edited by Havos on
  • ColinFrenchColinFrench Posts: 647
    edited February 2022

    My vote would be for keeping the old product as is and releasing a new Ghost Lights 2 version suitable for 4.20 and above. If you want to offer a discount for existing customers I wouldn't turn it down, but I think your time is worth way more than a buck! laugh

    If you go this route, I would suggest that the information for the original Ghost Lights be slightly updated so anyone looking at the product will understand that it's for older 16.18 versions of Studio or earlier. Maybe include a link to the newer version to help new customers find it if that's want they need.

    (minor edit due to morning coffee not kicking in yet)

    Post edited by ColinFrench on
  • JamieMJamieM Posts: 356

    KindredArts said:

    Griffin Avid said:

    Maybe then, just release them as a new(er) product.

    And have them say, the originals work in Daz.XXX and this new Ghost Lights 2.0 is for Daz new release DAZ.XXXX and above. 

    What happens if I open an Old Scene- built using the old lights? 

    This is also an option. I've learned a lot in the past six years since the original ghost light set so i could probably just scratch make a new set and give a 90% discount to the original owners so people can pick up the new versions for around a dollar. So the older builds will stay in your catalogues unchanged, and you can have the never builds on hand should you want them.

    It's a bit tricky to know what the correct course is at the moment. 

     

    That would be great!

    (My favourite product)

     

  • SauronLivezSauronLivez Posts: 150

    Like many folks here - Ghost lights are how I light the vast majority of my indoor scenes! Love 'em, so looking forward to a fix.  Since they're related, I hope that your excellent Probe Lights also get an update.  90% of my indoor scenes are lit using a mix of Probe and Ghost Lights.  I can't even imagine lighting scenes without 'em!

  • johndoe_36eb90b0johndoe_36eb90b0 Posts: 263

    I think the best approach might be updating the lights to work in new DAZ Studio but also adding two scripts.

    First script would convert existing GLK scene props by adjusting their numerical values for opacity and luminosity and by removing black map if present.

    Second script would convert newly loaded GLK scene props with new values back to the old values and add a black map where necessary so they can be used in older versions of DAZ Studio.

    That way you would get to QA for new DAZ Studio, they would work out-of-the-box in new DAZ Studio, users with many existing scenes would be able to quickly update existing GLK props using first script, and users of the older versions of DAZ Studio would be able to load new GLK props and use the second script to make them backwards-compatible again.

  • johndoe_36eb90b0johndoe_36eb90b0 Posts: 263

    By the way, there is one case where ghost lights don't behave the same way in DAZ Studio 4.20 and I am afraid you won't be able to fix it:

    To reproduce:

    1. Start with empty scene

    2. Set Environment Mode to Scene only

    3. Create a 2 m plane at world center, Y positive, 1 division

    4. Load Horizontal Ghost Light, spin it by 180, and translate by 0.01 on Y axis so it is above the plane, and apply default settings (100 kcd/m^2 for DAZ Studio 4.16 Release, 1000000000.0 kcd/m^2 for DAZ Studio 4.20)

    5. Create a 50 cm sphere at world center, Y positive, with 50 sides and 50 segments

    Notice how in DAZ Studio 4.20 you have massive fireflies in the ghost light plane where in DAZ Studio 4.16 you don't have any.

    I understand that this may look like a weird scenario but having lighting coming from the floor is useful. I also assume that depending on how dark the scene is, this may happen with ghost lights placed in other spots such as on a wall or on a ceiling which is a concern if they are in the camera FOV.

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    glk_ds_4_20.png
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  • TaozTaoz Posts: 9,971
    edited February 2022

    I noticed the firefly thing too when testing, but otherwise I didn't find any differences.

    Post edited by Taoz on
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