[Tutorial] Starting out with Geo-Grafting (repost)

wasabi

Hello Hiro Protagonist.

Can you tell me what software do you use to make geograft ?
I try Hexagon, but it's not easy to snap vertex to the ring.

Thanks.

Hiro Protagonist

dazwasa said:

Hello Hiro Protagonist.

Can you tell me what software do you use to make geograft ?
I try Hexagon, but it's not easy to snap vertex to the ring.

Thanks.

I use Blender. I've originally thought vertex snapping in Blender didn't work, but it appears that it doesn't work properly in orthographic view in edit mode, so you need to be in perspective view. After a little practice I found it to be fine.

It's not going to conform a whole ring of vertices to another ring and snap all the vertices though. You will have to snap each one that is out of alignment individually.

ghastlycomic

Actually, it doesn't look to me as if the graft has welded at all, but that's hard to tell from the screenshot. I think we will need to see a wireframe view to be able to see what is going wrong, so a screenshot in Wire Texture Shaded mode would be useful. I don't see any reason why your concept shouldn't work in theory.

I'm missing a polygon somewhere on the genesis mesh and that's causing the problem. It's frustrating because I can't assign the geograph polygons all at once so I have to rotate around the figure using drag select to assign them, but I see nowhere in the Geometry tool where you can view what polygons have been set to geograph and what polygons have been set to autohide.

Here is a picture of the wireframes.

I've highlighted the neck ring I copied from the Genesis figure. The Genesis figure is set to base resolution so you can see they line up.

I created a selection set this time one the Genesis figure so I could at least preview what was what and then assigned them to the geograph and autohide polys but it still doesn't work.

Maybe Hexagon is just not capable of copying geometry that will remain compatible with a geograph.

Hiro Protagonist

ghastlycomic said:

I'm missing a polygon somewhere on the genesis mesh and that's causing the problem. It's frustrating because I can't assign the geograph polygons all at once so I have to rotate around the figure using drag select to assign them, but I see nowhere in the Geometry tool where you can view what polygons have been set to geograph and what polygons have been set to autohide.

Here is a picture of the wireframes.

I've highlighted the neck ring I copied from the Genesis figure. The Genesis figure is set to base resolution so you can see they line up.

I created a selection set this time one the Genesis figure so I could at least preview what was what and then assigned them to the geograph and autohide polys but it still doesn't work.

Maybe Hexagon is just not capable of copying geometry that will remain compatible with a geograph.

Very difficult to tell what the problem might be. It looks to me like one of the vertices on the inner edge of the ring has more edges connected to it on the graft item than it does to Genesis. I'm not sure if that would be a problem, but I guess it's possible. I'm still concerned about the flat shading on the ring in your first shot—I've never seen that before.

I'm sure Hex can create G-Gs from Genesis loops. I believe Kitakoredaz uses Hexagon and s/he has made Genesis grafts work.

If you are able to share your graft item with me somehow I'd be glad to try fitting it myself; I could take a look at it in Blender, too, to see if I can spot anything. It seems a shame not to have it work as you have done so much work on it.

ghastlycomic

HOLY CRAP!!! I GOT IT TO WORK!!!!

(and I have no idea how)

Now I have a toon head for Genesis which I can use texture maps to create drawn faces. This will be so much fun!

Hiro Protagonist

ghastlycomic said:

HOLY CRAP!!! I GOT IT TO WORK!!!!

(and I have no idea how)

Now I have a toon head for Genesis which I can use texture maps to create drawn faces. This will be so much fun!

Congratulations!

ghastlycomic

Hmmm... don't congratulate me too soon.

I saved the head but when I load it back it doesn't geograph. ;_;

[EDIT]

Okay.... now I feel silly. When you're in Geometry Editor the Genesis Polygons still show up. When you're in another tool then they go away. That's why I couldn't get it to work right. I was fitting the head to it with the Geometry Editor active. When I click Universal then it properly geographs.

Hiro Protagonist

Yes, that's my last instruction:

Now the only thing left to do is to switch to the Universal tool and mouse over the graft figure (or select it in the scene and go to the Parameters tab) and click “Fit to” to fit it to Genesis. This is when the magic happens and the graft is implanted in Genesis

wasabi

hiro protagonist is right.

1)Sent the Genesis figure to Hexagon. Genesis 1 or 2 (with Parameters / mesh resolution base/0) ?

2)Made a replacement head.
3)Copied a ring of polygons around the neck.OK

4) Welded the ring and the head together.

5) Welded the replacement head to the ring.

6) Sent it to Daz.

7) Convert to SubD (not necessary) use directly Transfer utility with no fit to.

8) Transfer utility with no fit to.

9) Set the ring on the genesis with “Set Graph Faces For Fitted Figure”ok

10) Set the ring and the whole genesis head to “Set Autohide Faces For Fitted Figure”Not ring + whole BUT only whole !

11) Select your geograft -> Edit/Figure/Fit to... and select genesis

11)select only your geograft and File/save as/support asset/ Figure prop asset

ghastlycomic

Lol. All that pulling my hair out because I missed one little instruction. :lol:

Hiro Protagonist

ghastlycomic said:

Lol. All that pulling my hair out because I missed one little instruction. :lol:

Ah well, all's well that ends well! :)

By the way, your modelling on that head is superb.

ghastlycomic

Hiro Protagonist said:

ghastlycomic said:

Lol. All that pulling my hair out because I missed one little instruction. :lol:

Ah well, all's well that ends well! :)

By the way, your modelling on that head is superb.

And the good thing is, since I made the rookiest of rookie mistakes it will serve as a warning to future geographers.

cdemerit

Thank you. The simplistic base instructions are very helpful. Too often people get too involved, and it's hard to see what they are doing. I tried a simple Geograph, and had no problems... Now I need to make a set of webbed hands, and the zero position base makes this difficult, is it really necessary to be in Zero or can you spread the fingers so long as the graph is also at the same layout, or is this going to crash and burn?

Hiro Protagonist

cdemerit said:

Thank you. The simplistic base instructions are very helpful. Too often people get too involved, and it's hard to see what they are doing. I tried a simple Geograph, and had no problems... Now I need to make a set of webbed hands, and the zero position base makes this difficult, is it really necessary to be in Zero or can you spread the fingers so long as the graph is also at the same layout, or is this going to crash and burn?

I think it is the Transfer Utility step of the process where this would have to be allowed. I don't know very much about this as I only ever use it in a basic way, so someone who knows more about it would have to answer. I found a thread here which seems to approach the problem. It seems that you can project from a posed source using the Current option for source, but it transfers to the target zero pose nevertheless. I get the impression there is a way to compensate for this but I don't know what it is—unfortunately I find both answer incomprehensible

kitakoredaz

Hi,, I had thought "transfer rigging" (Figure space) of joint editor tool, should work for such purpose.
then had thought we could model items shape for pozed figure if we need.

Actually it can be useful for some case . and user use it to correct Auto fit (or generate figure by transfer utiltity) rigs position,
or model high heel for pozing figure.

but At current I understand there is exception case which can not work .
usually it work if user poze Source Actor without twist rotation.. (that means, XYZ bones can poze Y and Z,
YZX bone can poze Z and X,

but if use twist rotation for pozing, the transfer rigging (joint editor) can not work well.

it can transfer all rigs "center and end point location". then after we use "align" bones,
the transfer rig align clean, and each rig pozsiton is same as source pozing rig.

but change rigs first axis rotation.then I can not find stable way to correct it.

Unfortunately, values of center end point X,Y,Z position, and rotation values in joint editor only show
zero poze rig, not tell current pozed rig position values.

so that I can not use copy and paste each rigs rotation value from pozed source to target one by one.

Then,, I do not know for what puropose, "tnrasnfer rigging" was desigend , and why all pozed rig rotation can not transfer correctly.

At least, I think there is no real stable way to perfect transfer (copy) pozed rig to another figure or obj,
and set it as zero poze (default) rig.

d-j-o

I'm having a problem. I can create my Geo Graft item and get it into Daz studio and everything matches up. See image 1

Once I get get to the "fit to" Genesis step, the auto hide works but my Geo Graft item shifts it's position. see image 2

Any idea why this happens and how to I get it to stop?

Thanks

Richard Haseltine

Did you model against the zeroed figure, or did you have a morph applied?

d-j-o

It's a zeroed figure. The base Genesis with no morphs applied. I have a lot of morphs available on my figure, is there a way to click on the figure and zero all morphs in case something is dialed in?

d-j-o

I found the zero all morphs in Edit>Figure>Zero and it had something set, because when I cleared it out, it had some small movement to the figure as it zeroed out, so some morph setting was dialed up in my default figuire, not much it appeared to be some muscle movements. So I resaved my figure and my Geo Grafts are workong fine.

Thanks

oomu

Hello

Is it required to model a graft from a zeroed figure ?

I have the same problem than Bwise1701 : when I fit the geograft it's translated in space (in height).

- I started from a very morphed G2F, exported it in ZBrush (in base resolution, with GoZ)
- I kept only the head, hidden and deleted all polygons not useful from the mesh
- protected a ring of polygons in the mesh and sculpt inside
- then send to daz with GoZ

- new object, subd it,
- I used transfer utility
- put the good settings
- I assigned a ring of polygons ON G2F to be the common polygons with the graft
- I assigned the ring and inside ON G2F to be the hidden polygons on G2F
- and then I fit the graft to G2F.

Did I make a mistake in the steps ? I think the assignments were fine.

or is it required to start from a zeroed figure ?

Is it possible to correct the translating ? it will be easier to sculpt from the morphed figure (to see proportion and stuff).

Many thanks for the whole tutorial and explanations.

Richard Haseltine

Yes, you need to start from a zeroed figure because the vertices around the edge of the graft have to line up exactly with the matching vertices on the base figure. You could, I suppose, make your model on a morphed version, rig it with the Reverse Source Shape from target option, go back to your modeller and snap the vertices into the correct position, then update the figure's geometry to use that modified mesh.

mjc1016

Richard Haseltine said:

Yes, you need to start from a zeroed figure because the vertices around the edge of the graft have to line up exactly with the matching vertices on the base figure. You could, I suppose, make your model on a morphed version, rig it with the Reverse Source Shape from target option, go back to your modeller and snap the vertices into the correct position, then update the figure's geometry to use that modified mesh.

And that is why I keep a bottle of aspirin next to the computer...

It's much easier to do from the zeroed position.

ttnn

Hiro Protagonist said:

When you import your freshly made item into DAZ, of course, it will only be a "prop".
The first step after loading it is to convert it to a figure, as the graft must be a figure to work.
For this I am using the Transfer Utility...

Thank you for your mentorship!
Problem with Transfer Utility is that it replicates an entire hip-to-pinky3 armature.
If you can find Convert Prop to Figure, uncheck Inherit Skeleton of Parent,
it gives you only one bone (or, a root + one bone).

Getting the outline of that bone to point the way you think it should
had me frustrated, until I found Joint Editor, right click, Align. :-S

Hiro Protagonist

ttnn said:

Hiro Protagonist said:

When you import your freshly made item into DAZ, of course, it will only be a "prop".
The first step after loading it is to convert it to a figure, as the graft must be a figure to work.
For this I am using the Transfer Utility...

Thank you for your mentorship!
Problem with Transfer Utility is that it replicates an entire hip-to-pinky3 armature.
If you can find Convert Prop to Figure, uncheck Inherit Skeleton of Parent,
it gives you only one bone (or, a root + one bone).

Getting the outline of that bone to point the way you think it should
had me frustrated, until I found Joint Editor, right click, Align. :-S
From my experience the Transfer Utility only transfers a limited number of bones radiating from the position of the graft. For example, a shark fin on the back won't have bones lower than pelvis or further out than forearms. I guess it depends where the graft is fitted, so if it's on the forearm it will include all the hand bones.

I don't know a whole lot about rigging, but might it not be easier (although possibly a bit tedious) to delete unwanted bones after transfer using the Joint Editor? You can, of course, add custom bones to your graft (as was done with the male genital graft created by DAZ).

oomu

Richard Haseltine said:

Yes, you need to start from a zeroed figure because the vertices around the edge of the graft have to line up exactly with the matching vertices on the base figure. You could, I suppose, make your model on a morphed version, rig it with the Reverse Source Shape from target option, go back to your modeller and snap the vertices into the correct position, then update the figure's geometry to use that modified mesh.

thanks for your answer

But it seems crazy complicated :) My main concern is I'm not sure I can snap back the vertices to the exact correct position...

-
but even with starting from the base mesh, I have difficulties.

I want to create a graft for making some kind of "hairs" / stylized furs for a toon character and to make it blend to the head. The morph on the character is extreme: very short, big round head and so on. (it would be useful too for ears, tails, paws, and so on)

Now, when I do a graft with the base model it works, okay. But if I morph back the character to the toon one, it also affect the graft (obviously I guess) and it's not nice at all.

So my question: Is it possible to create a graft where some parts are not affected by morphs ?

oomu

mjc1016 said:

Richard Haseltine said:

Yes, you need to start from a zeroed figure because the vertices around the edge of the graft have to line up exactly with the matching vertices on the base figure. You could, I suppose, make your model on a morphed version, rig it with the Reverse Source Shape from target option, go back to your modeller and snap the vertices into the correct position, then update the figure's geometry to use that modified mesh.

And that is why I keep a bottle of aspirin next to the computer...

It's much easier to do from the zeroed position.

yes, but my goal is in fact to create grafts for a heavy morphed figurine. And it's way more complicated than I thought or I don't know what I'm doing :)

hellborn

Does this still work in 4.8?

I have almost gone nuts now on getting it to work.

I zero figure.

Use GoZ to transfer to zBrush as base and no modifications.

Deletes all expect the faces I want (made an easy test with navel area).

Makes a small change (pulled some vertices in the navel outwards)

Transfer back to DAZ.

Uses edit/figure/transfer utility with suggested settings.

Select ring on G2 and sets as graft faces.

Selects area on G2 covered by graft to autohide.

Selects the graft and does the fit to G2.

The graft gets "fitted" to the figure but it does not replace itself into the figure. Nothing auto hides and edges does not match up properly, so no real replace happens?

 

 

hellborn

Got it to work but not totally sure why.

Only thing i know i made different is that i did not uncheck Region Groups in the transfer utility (something I saw was unchecked in a tutorial)

And, when doing the fit to i did not just click on the graft part in the Node Tree but i rather clicked  the Node selection tool (thus leaving the geometry editor tool first) and then clicked on the graftpart in the 3D view and selected fit to.

Not sure what made the difference.

 

 

hellborn

OR NOT: ???

As long as both G2 and graft is at base level it looks fine but if I switch either to High Res they start to missmatch?

EDIT:

This is another mesh than the navel test and I think its something wrong with it. Not lining upp exactly or something.

Thomas Windar

hellborn said:

OR NOT: ???

As long as both G2 and graft is at base level it looks fine but if I switch either to High Res they start to missmatch?

EDIT:

This is another mesh than the navel test and I think its something wrong with it. Not lining upp exactly or something.

Try checking the topic I posted.

I also had the issue so maybe it will help you out.