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Always. There's a number of reasons:
Lettering, imho, shoud never be given short shrift in comics of any kind - whether it's digital, 3D or analog. (which is one reaon why the first volume of the 3d comics "tutorial" from Digital Art was so disapointing as the lecturer was alll "meh" about lettering.). When I do comics, I either scan my thumnails or use my thumbs from Clip Studio Paint, crop the panels out of the page, making sure that the DPI is the same as the final version of the comic. I name the panels PG-PNL_StoryTitle, where PG is a two digit page number and PNL is the two digit Panel Number. Add zeros to pad out numbers less than 10, so page one panel three would be 01-03. Then I import the panels into my lettering app (currently testing the beta of Affinity Publisher) for layout and lettering. Working from a script (which should always be done either before or after the thumnails), I then letter the comic and get a feel for the text/visual balance. It's at this point that I concider adding more panels or movinbg things around so the comic reads better. I've found that it's good to have someone else do the reading of the comic to get feedback.
Once that's all done, I then create the 3D files from the asset list I made when making the thumbnails. This means making or kit-bashing the sets, props etc. This is where researching how movies are made can be handy. If you're working on a series, you can create sets and resuse them. So it'll be helpful to have "templates" of sets made that you can copy over and use in the current episode.
Then I make the scenes, render out panels and make sure that the render file names match exactly (or overwrite) the thumbnail panels. This way when you open up the lettered comic, it should (like in Comic Life 3, Illustrator, InDesign and Affinity Publisher) automatically up date the file with the current image, provided you just put a link to the image when first making the lettering file.
I skipped and condensed a lot of stuff, but I wanted to show why it is so important to have thumnails done before doing any 3D comic (or any comic) work. Think of a fight scene, without thumbnails doing a good and involving choreographing scene would be so much harder than need be. Look up staging, for examples.
hth
I'm writing a script for every page with detailed information on every panel but I don't do thumbs ( I would need three times as long to sketch them than to rearrange the setting for a diferent render :D). However, as I'm using endless canvas format there is only one direction I have to keep in mind for the reading flow. I guess with a standart page or even more with printed format it would be different as the complete page needs to have a concept to work.
Demon Division works on a script with descriptions, and I used to do rough sketches, but then moved from there to screenshots before rendering. I'd prefer more planning, but I'm at nearly zero buffer at the moment (3 weeks of flu do that to your buffer...). So it's all pretty much hand-to-mouth at the moment.
I think it depends on how much you can hold in your head.
I don't do (drawn or preliminary) thumbnails because Daz is like a storyboard generator and it feels, for me, at least, redundant to do storyboards...for what is essentially a storyboard layout.
I'm at the point where I can imagine a page (or two) at a time and know what scenes/panels I will need.
Then go make them.
Then make the page from them.
The script has replaced the storyboard part of the process.
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The only issue I've ever had with storyboards is that they sometimes remove the spontaneity of moving around and being in a 3D environment and coming up with new ideas or shots on the fly.
If the rendering or image-generating process is a slavish reproduction of the thumbnails, I feel like an extra dimension can be overlooked.
I wonder if that comment is about this course....the one I did.
https://www.daz3d.com/comic-book-creation--foundation-course-part-1
and if you realize part II covers text and titles and more. So I wouldn’t say it’s “meh” I’d say it’s not covered till part II.
https://www.daz3d.com/comic-book-creation--foundation-course-part-2
where it says:
Tutorial 2
Drew Spence and Digital Art Live present the fourth and final segment of the Comic Book Foundation course. A picture says a thousand words as we look at the usage of text in our work and break down the first impression, which is our cover art. We will discover why words are more than words and how your character-driven dialogue becomes the greatest vehicle to the gaining long-term interest from your readership.
This course will cover:
Thank you very much for the detailed description of your workflow. your inclusion and swapping of the thumbnails sounds cool. I may consider doing that in my next project.
I've been doing something similar, although I do use file names like PoT2_pg04_pn02b_(10-18-2018). In this case, it would be:
Similar processes, really. And I agree about using zeroes when you number things.
Naming things correctly and putting them in the proper folders is an important step to anything more than a 2-page project, at least for me. I just can't keep things straight if I don't name and file correctly.
Lettering + Page Set-up
I couldn't agree with you more about the importance of lettering. That is one of the areas I struggle with (among everything else). For the story I'm working on now, I did something different (at least for me). For this project, I did my usual thumbnails while sipping whiskey one night. They were very, very rough and drawn on typing paper. Now, you know that typing paper has a different aspect ration from the printed comic page, so I addressed this by creating a template with InDesign and it had the printed dimensions of the comic page – I printed out these blank templates and drew the second set of thumbnails (while very sober) a few days later and tightened up the story and brought in more action (the first pass was very talky and static). Having the dimensions of the comic page forced me to rethink panel arrangement and story flow. It was a very important step for the design of the book.
Then (and this was also new for me, and similar to what you do) I went into Clip Studio Paint and set up all my pages, panels and lettered the entire book from start to finish (not including sound effects, which I will handle as part of the artwork). All of this was even before setting up a single character or asset in Poser.
Thanks again for your detailed workflow. I really love reading the details of things like that, as it always gives me ideas and new insights. (Also would love to hear your thoughts on Affinity Designer, some day).
For me, I don’t think I could work well without thumbnails (especially since my day job and other projects can keep me away from my at for months at a time). And my thumbnails are very rough, so I can create them very fast. They are sometimes little more than scribbles with notes. They help me nail down the pacing of the story, being mindful of page breaks and things like how often I’m using two-page spreads and things like that balancing between close-ups, medium shots, and so forth.
But, I also completely get what you mean about the final art being a “slavish reproduction of the thumbnails.” I occasionally feel that way, too, like it’s more of a chore than a creative effort.
However, it is also a little liberating. Here’s a page from my current comic.
In the top 4 panels, my thumbnails actually just focused on his face and upper chest. I didn’t have him moving around so much, and definitely his hands weren’t moving around. I didn’t think of the hand movement until I had him in front of the camera and then it just seemed natural and it helped emphasize his “inner turmoil.”
And when I was working on panel 2, I had a “happy accident” in Poser that resulted in this panel being much cooler than I had originally envisioned.
I have set up a huge scene set up with the two main figures in a cavern with a large rock, dead dragon and a horde of treasure. This is a huge set (the whole story only has three sets) and, as I move through the story, I hide the pieces I don’t need.
For panel 2, I was setting up the camera for this shot and had not yet hidden the other elements. And that’s when I saw the dragon behind him. It matched perfectly with the dialogue, so I repositioned him and the camera so we could see it over his shoulder and turned his head so he’s looking at the beast he just killed.
Much better than what I had envisioned in my thumbnails!
So, I guess the point of all this was that using thumbnails still allows for experimentation inside the camera/3D app. You just have to find some sweet spot between pre-planning and spontinaity.
That's interesting. I'm considering doing something something similar for my next project. Poser does Sketch Style renders, and I'm thinking of setting up base figures (almost no morphs) and creating a lot of sketch renders to serve as a step between thumbnails and final work. I'm probably going to experiment with this on a few pages and see if the book's writer/editor likes some pages before I commit to them.
However, I'm also worried that this might be too time consuming, so I may not do it. I won't know for sure until I get deeper into the project.
I do think the "endless canvas" approach may not require thumbnails as much because you don't need to worry about physical page breaks.
For my next project, I'm working with someone else's material, so he has provided a full script. I'm about to start breaking it down in thumbnails. This is going to be a bit of a chllenge for me because he likes to put a LOT of panels on his pages, whereas I am a bit more minimalist in that regard. Fortunately, he has approved me adding some two-page spreads and increasing the page count up to 6 pages (can't make the contents of the book go over 40 interior pages, though, or he can't print it).
Yeah, that's what I was referencing. Maybe "meh" was not my best choice of words. However, the Part One of this foundation course was a real struggle for me to slog through. I am not saying it was bad. I am saying that the instruciton style isn't one that fits my learning style. Therefore I just passed on any further parts in this series, prefering to find information elsewhere-- Like the short(and free) tutorials by Nate Piekos on his site, Blambot.com.He's lettered thousands of comics, in many styles. Then there's ComiCraft at comicbooklettering.com that has a number of tutorials. And Richard Starkinsgs (Sp?) did a great course on lettering that I was able to watch using my local library's sub to Lynda.coma (Don't know if LinkedIn, which bought out Lynda.con, has a free 30 day sub or not). And in the DC Comics series on comics, there's the lettering and coloring volume that has the lettering part written by Todd Klien, who is a great letterer (He did the bulk of lettering for a little comic called Sandman).
So people who liked the first part of your tutorial series should check out the other parts. And for those of us who weren't too impressed by it should just find information elsewhere.
You deserve props and apprectiation for doing this foundation series of tutorials and for your comic works, Drew. So, here's to you -- continued good luck on all your endevours!
I am a BIG FAN of Nate's work and his fonts. In fact, that's his Ashcan font in my comic page above (and I will be tweaking the letter spacing and posting the update soon). I enjoy reading Nate's Facebook feed as he discusses some of the details and decisions he makes about lettering. Such a discussion a few months bak on how some publishers prefer that you not butt word balloons up against the panel borders and how others are fine with it. He's very forthcoming with info and techniques and I have learned a lot from him.
Since we’re talking about lettering, I thought I would throw this piece out there.
I’ve posted it here at Daz before, but I don’t think I’ve posted it to this forum (created in Poser Pro 11 and Clip Studio Paint). This is a much-delayed superhero comic that I’m working on, and it’s set in post WWII America which is one reason I decided to use retro-style thought balloons rather than caption boxes with “quoted text to reveal the character’s inner thoughts.”
However, I decided to go against the retro vibe by choosing sentence case over UPPER CASE. I guess I should be consistent and pick one style, but I really prefer sentence case so I will probably just keep it that way.
Anyway, here’s my first draft of the lettering. Note that in panel 3 the text is all in one big balloon.
And here is my second take, with the balloons broken up by a sound effect. For this, I rasterized the text, drew the little squibs and then mesh distorted it to give it that neat little slant.
I prefer the second version because I think the >sniff< adds a dimension of time to it. In other words, it lets me do in one panel what might otherwise take two or three (he picks up the hanky, sniffs it, asks about the aroma). I had to step away from the page for a few days before the second version came to mind.
BTW: The hero is Moon Wolf, and yeah, he has more than a passing resemblance to a certain Bat-eared hero. Honestly, though, my inspiration for him more DC’s Wildcat and The Fox by Red Circle (aka Archie). Since this is just a fan project (done for learning software and workflow), I’m not in the least bit concerned about similarities to the Big Bad Bat.
I am doing some concept art for a new comic idea.
I have used the RD Phenotype Horde creature and jungle props for the backgrounds, exported out of Daz
I used Unity 3D for the lighting and render passes and composited in Photoshop. No drawing or painting, just 3D renders
Let me know what you think
Pete
Division is a team project, so my co-author has a say over the imagery, too. However, the re-rendering takes time, and I usually don't have the time to redo a render. So it's a lot easier to make corrections.
Here's an example at how the screenshot "storyboard" looks compared to the finalized page.
That's very cool. I like seeing the contrast between the two, and I like the addition of the observer. You chose some very cool textures/effects for her.
Wowzers! This has a cool look. Honestly, it looks like it was painted on back velvet.
I think you are onto something here. I like the contrast of the leaves against the darkness and that glow on the creature is stunning. I do lose his eyes just a little bit because we're seeing red eyes in a red-brown fur. Have you tried other colors like green or yellow? I'd love to see a few more shots like this. Question: This technique seems perfectly suited for horror shots. Can you also do other moods with your workflow?
Thanks for the feedback. You make a good point about the eyes, I think maybe the werewolf is a bit too red/pink, so I might try and Change it more to a brownish colour and have the red eyes more distinctive. I like the black velvet thing, I'd not thought about that, so that's cool.
The technique I use has multiple variations for several types of comic image formats: such as: Clean and simple style, graphic novel art or just plain old simple comic book style.
I've had quite a lot of fun creating the images.
They are part of a tutorial series I have created
PS. mmitchell_houston The post you made earlier of your comic artwork has a nice distinctive style and the layout was really effective. It has a nice noir style to it with great use of shadows. Nice work
Thanks for the kind words about my comic page. I'm just now wrapping up some work I've been doing on weekends and I'm really looking forward to getting back to working on this comic (and setting up the sets and characters for my next comic). Day jobs pay the bills but they don't feed the artistic soul! :-)
As for your work, I really think you're on to something. I really like this one:
This one has a nice modern comic look to it. I particularly like the draping of the cloth on her trousers and on the tanktop. Background coloring is a cool choice. I think way too often we try for overly "realistic" colors instead of doing what Marvel and DC have done for decades, and that is to treat the backgrounds as swaths of color.
I was looking at the pic of the guy (again, I like his form a lot – which fig/character is this, by the way?):
I like your outlines, but noticed that you are getting a lot of speckling. In one of his Webinars, pro-comics artist Brian Haberlin suggested a way to address this. He suggested removing (or at least toning waaaay down) the bump maps on skin and clothing. You wind up with smoother renders and that makes them easier to clean up. You know, right now I'm looking at this guy and LOVING the linework on his legs. That is a cool contour line behind his calf. Very nice!
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Looking forward to seeing what you do with your werewolf next. He's very cool looking and that is such a striking image. I'm very impressed! And, just a thought, if the brown tones don't work out for you, you could always go silver/gray. That would provide you with a lot of contrast for your backgrounds. Later, and thanks again!
Sorry to be so overly specific (again), but something about Jane's speach bubbles bothers me.
I like those radiating lines, but a few thoughts:
Again, just a few thoughts. I really like the additions/changes you made since the webinar workshop! Very cool stuff.
Thanks, your feedback is constructive and accurate. It's good to know what other people like about the images I create.
I've wanted to create comics for years but my drawing skills are really bad. I used to teach creative media for a few years and now finally have the time to explore different techniques for comic images.
This forum is really useful in seeing how other people have experimented with this.
The running character was created in Adobe Fuse. I used that one so my students on Udemy could also create the character and follow through the process of recreating him.
I have noticed that character normals do create shading anomalies. I find them useful for full colour pass renders, but as you suggest I will try rmoving them for shading passes.
I am also including a reviewed werewolf, with the colours toned down and the background muted to help the werewolf pop a bit from the page. The scene will be set at night, so I am keeping it dark puposefully to create suspense and drama.
Thanks for your time. Pete
I've never touched Adobe Fuse (after all, I've got both Poser and Daz Studio), but am interested in seeing what others can do with it. I also love coming here for the feedback and discussion about art and the various details of the creative process.
I'm glad you're finally finding the time to persue your passion of creating comics. Like you, I can envision more than I can draw, so these 3D tools are a great boon to my efforts!
I think I owe you an apology for my suggestions. Although I do like the revised image, it lacks the menace and "punch" of the original. I think this is a time when my advice has steered you astray.
Mike
Thanks. This is a cool series. I just watched two videos there. His insights are very good and give me a lot to think about.
This is a great youtube channel. I have been watching this for quite a while, the guy really knows what he's talking about. I visited after a refer from a comic colourist on Youtube: K Michael Russel. https://www.youtube.com/user/kmrussell24
I discovered lots of great tips about composition, focus, colour theory and lighting angles from K Michael Russel
I've often thought about motion comics, it really would be a natural evolution of the medium. I experimented with it once using Flash, (now Adobe Animate), but it took me far too long to achieve and I kind of gave up on it.
I read an issue of Zombie Tramp once that had achieved a sort of animated effect by duplicating images in panels and just adding extra bits each time or moving the character slightly. It has a big impact on the viewer, particularly when viewed digitally on a tablet or PC.
There was a pretty good example on the Hellboy blu ray movies of motion comics in the extras section.
Good luck with the experimentation and show us what you achieve.
To mmitchell_houston Thanks for the input. The original werewolf image does stand out a bit more. I work using a lot of adjustment layers so that it is non destructive workflow. I can move back and forward between stages, which is why I can experiment so much. I am really concepting at the moment, so it's all about the experimentation until I find the right style that would suit my comic idea. I have the story completed, and it would be a four issue mini story. When I get the style I am happy with I will share more examples.
Thank you! The character uses https://www.daz3d.com/iray-frozen-sisters-for-genesis-3-female which is a fantastic set that comes with three shaders. You can also get it for G3M.
The dark lines are supposed to reflect the brutality of invading someone's mind and read their thoughts; as such, they are meant to 'rip' into the scene (as in, intentionally), though of course I don't know if my interpretion comes across to the reader as intended. At the same time, the black color is supposed to not o distract too much from her, colourwise, connecting her words to the background. Kind of like stitches.... at least, that was the idea.
The font, I really don't know about changing the font outside of FX.
Here's a version trying to do what you suggested (at least, what I uderstood from it). Fortunately, it's just copy the layer and mess around with a few settings in Clip Studio.
I know the standard comic layout is a classic, but I've actually always used an orizontal layout, where each page contains a single scene. I've chosen it because nowadays we almost read comics with 16:9 monitors, and it has always bothered me to scroll!
But I guess I'm just a rebel...I even use Photoshop for the dialogues instead of word balloons xD
I would like to see a page from you and how you switch to the next page, like going left or going down? I think there are a lot more options open with presenting comics on the web, so experimenting is good thing
If your intent is to "rip" into his thoughts, then I definitely think the black is better. I wasn't sure of the intent, but the original definitely was more brutal. I also think the new font isn't quite as legible as the original, so again (I'm batting .000 these days), I think your original is better. But thanks so much for taking my considerations to heart enough to try them out. I'm flattered, really.
I think your ideas were very helpful. I'm shuffeling around in my own little cardboard box, and there area lot of things that I didn't consider, or simply lack experience about. So, I'm quite happy to try out things and see how it works out. It helps shaping my own style and finding what works best for me.
Besides, if I managed to confuse you with what my panel is saying, probably a lot more people are confused about it.