EULA Update & Editorial Licenses Coming to Daz

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  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024

    Kerya said:

    PerttiA said:

    ioonrxoon said:

    PerttiA said:

    It simply isn't possible for DAZ to change the licence after one has already bought the product, everybody that has any experience with contracts knows that.

    RangerRick mentioned a different situatiion , one where they'd remove an item from store and repost it under editorial license, not a direct license change. That could happen theoretically. Even if you bought it under standard license and keep that license, there'd still be something wrong with that item, if it was changed. And the store wouldn't back your original license, as it'd appear with editorial instead.

    If it was sold with Standard Licence, that licence would be shown in your Product Library. Just like items that were pulled from the store for any reason, would still be in Product Library for ones that bought it before it was pulled. 

    Unfortunately, the license part in the Product library can be overwritten by Daz ... as seen when the 3dprinting license was introduced.

    That would be breach of contract if they changed Standard Licence to Editorial after one had already purchased the product.

  • ioonrxoonioonrxoon Posts: 894
    edited December 2022

    Kerya said:

    Unfortunately, the license part in the Product library can be overwritten by Daz ... as seen when the 3dprinting license was introduced.

     Completely different sitiation, that doesn't take anything away from your original license nor does it replace it, just adds an extra license (besides, it's your choice). And there was no change either, since there already was the interactive licese that worked the same way.

    Post edited by ioonrxoon on
  • KeryaKerya Posts: 10,943

    ioonrxoon said:

    Kerya said:

    Unfortunately, the license part in the Product library can be overwritten by Daz ... as seen when the 3dprinting license was introduced.

     Completely different sitiation, that doesn't take anything away from your original license nor does it replace it, just adds an extra license (besides, it's your choice). And there was no change either, since there already was the interactive licese that worked the same way.

     

    At the moment it adds the extra license - but when they did the bulk "add 3dprinting license" for every DO you own that you bought before x/x/2022, it overwrote the "standard license". They changed that afterward.

    I just wanted to point out that the product library is not a reliable source to proof you bought something with a standard license.

  • ImagoImago Posts: 5,176

    kyoto kid said:

    ..I dumped the Cyber Racer and the asked for a refund on the  Retro Apartment Props 2

    What other ones are there?

    I was asking you about that in the case there was more of them. laugh

    I have already put those two in my blacklist and I will never buy anything related to them. I'll also totally stop purchasing stuff from here until there's a safe, secure and clear way to avoid Editorial Licenses with ZERO risk of getting one of those by mistake.

    A strong store filter, a clear marking in the promo image, a clearly visible and non-missable banner in the product page and a reminding popup asking for confirmation in the checkout page are a must in the store, and not just one of those but all of them must be there together. Also a clear separation and marking in the DIM, in Central, in Connect, in Content and Smart Content panes after the purchase of those products is a must.

    I'm sorry for those PAs who works hard on those products but, personally, I definitely can't have editorial licensed stuff in my library.

  • generalgameplayinggeneralgameplaying Posts: 517
    edited December 2022

    Imago said:

    I'll also totally stop purchasing stuff from here until there's a safe, secure and clear way to avoid Editorial Licenses with ZERO risk of getting one of those by mistake.

    Is it shown in the cart (or better the side pane after adding to the cart)? It would probably be full-text-searchable. They should really implement a filter for such...

    Post edited by generalgameplaying on
  • vrba79vrba79 Posts: 1,408

    I'm genuinely curious if anyone from the company is reading these liscensing concerns and taking them to heart.

    I mean I'm utterly doubtful that they are, but some small part of me wonders.

  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 7,057

    vrba79 said:

    I'm genuinely curious if anyone from the company is reading these liscensing concerns and taking them to heart.

    I mean I'm utterly doubtful that they are, but some small part of me wonders.

    The general impression/explanation over the years has been DAZ does not listen to/have concern for/holds much stock in whatever is said in the forums because the forums only represent the opinions/concerns of a fairly small percentage of users and the higher percentage of users never join or participate in the forums (therefore, I presume that somehow means they agree with whatever is going on), so unless it's something really important like some huge software flaw or the site has been compromised or something really bad like that, we are mostly just talking to ourselves and our concerns are amusing, but not something that carries any real weight whatsoever.

  • McGyver said:

    vrba79 said:

    I'm genuinely curious if anyone from the company is reading these liscensing concerns and taking them to heart.

    I mean I'm utterly doubtful that they are, but some small part of me wonders.

    The general impression/explanation over the years has been DAZ does not listen to/have concern for/holds much stock in whatever is said in the forums because the forums only represent the opinions/concerns of a fairly small percentage of users and the higher percentage of users never join or participate in the forums (therefore, I presume that somehow means they agree with whatever is going on), so unless it's something really important like some huge software flaw or the site has been compromised or something really bad like that, we are mostly just talking to ourselves and our concerns are amusing, but not something that carries any real weight whatsoever.

    Not strictly true - but often if the forums opinion is one way and Daz don't change anything - it's then seen as 'they don't listen or care'.  We do.. but there are times when there is a difference of opinion.

    The forums provide feedback and it's balancing that, ultimately, with the sales data.    There are a lot of times where those are very very different, so it's about balancing all of the variables.

  • SofaCitizenSofaCitizen Posts: 1,904

    Daz Jack Tomalin said:

    Not strictly true - but often if the forums opinion is one way and Daz don't change anything - it's then seen as 'they don't listen or care'.  We do.. but there are times when there is a difference of opinion.

    The forums provide feedback and it's balancing that, ultimately, with the sales data.    There are a lot of times where those are very very different, so it's about balancing all of the variables.

    I imagine that is true for some cases, however part of this issue is that many did not realise that items they bought did not have the licence they expected - either because it was removed/hidden due to a plugin/view mode, because they added it from the catalog view or just because it was not as visible as it could be. Therefore, I think it would perhaps be difficult to tell from sales data between the people who do not care about the licence and those that do not currently realise that they now have a potential legal landmine in their library.

    I am sure the licence is here to stay (as other stores also have something similar) but I would hope that, in this particular issue, the views of the people in this thread would carry a little more weight than usual versus the raw numbers in a spreadsheet for which context is not always fully apparent.

  • To be clear, I'm not talking specifically about the EL in this instance.  I'm talking in general, that's how things go..  we obviously factor in time too, so we don't judge things on immediate sales numbers.

    Regarding the EL and how it's displayed on the pages, yes, it's being looked at.

  • As a fairly new Daz-user - just started in March of 2022 - I'd also like to add my voice to the chorus saying that Editorial Licenses are fine; so long as they are very clearly displayed, easily noted when purchasing, and, if something were to have a license change, be clearly denoted in some way in the product/product library.

    I specifically got into Daz to start working on some VN projects and thinking that products could suddenly be "out" after I've purchased them is a nightmare. But mainly, I just want to easily identify these products going forward.

    Thank you.

  • PerttiA said:

    ioonrxoon said:

    PerttiA said:

    It simply isn't possible for DAZ to change the licence after one has already bought the product, everybody that has any experience with contracts knows that.

    RangerRick mentioned a different situatiion , one where they'd remove an item from store and repost it under editorial license, not a direct license change. That could happen theoretically. Even if you bought it under standard license and keep that license, there'd still be something wrong with that item, if it was changed. And the store wouldn't back your original license, as it'd appear with editorial instead.

    If it was sold with Standard Licence, that licence would be shown in your Product Library. Just like items that were pulled from the store for any reason, would still be in Product Library for ones that bought it before it was pulled. 

    Those that bought the props on mobile were sold them with the standard license, as per the EULA that states that any restriction are displayed on the product page (none were displayed for these users). That was in error and isn't reflected in folks' content libraries, but the agreement at point of sale appears to be for a standard license. As someone pointed out, however, the EULA doesn't absolve the user of needing to clear assets with IP holders even in the case of standard licenses. Makes me wonder what the point of the editorial license is as it changes nothing for the user with second parties - it only alters the relationship between DAZ and the user.
  • SofaCitizenSofaCitizen Posts: 1,904

    morrisonmp said:

    As a fairly new Daz-user - just started in March of 2022 - I'd also like to add my voice to the chorus saying that Editorial Licenses are fine; so long as they are very clearly displayed, easily noted when purchasing, and, if something were to have a license change, be clearly denoted in some way in the product/product library.

    I specifically got into Daz to start working on some VN projects and thinking that products could suddenly be "out" after I've purchased them is a nightmare. But mainly, I just want to easily identify these products going forward.

    Thank you.

    I'm pretty certain that it's not possible for the licence to change after purchase. If there was a legal issue in this area the product in question is likely to be pulled from the store.

  • kyoto kidkyoto kid Posts: 41,083

    morrisonmp said:

    As a fairly new Daz-user - just started in March of 2022 - I'd also like to add my voice to the chorus saying that Editorial Licenses are fine; so long as they are very clearly displayed, easily noted when purchasing, and, if something were to have a license change, be clearly denoted in some way in the product/product library.

    I specifically got into Daz to start working on some VN projects and thinking that products could suddenly be "out" after I've purchased them is a nightmare. But mainly, I just want to easily identify these products going forward.

    Thank you.

    ...right. the two pro sites I go to clearly indicate the licence status for a given product on the item's page. 

  • arks0ngarks0ng Posts: 273
    edited January 2023

    So here's a question. The (very cool looking) Cyber Garage | Daz 3D product uses Cyber Racer | Daz 3D in its promos, a product which has an editorial license. Now, since both products are by Merlin, obviously they've got more room to use them, but it's made me wonder.

    1) Do promo pictures count as "commercial use"? Could a pa use a product with an editorial license as part of a picture promoting/advertising their for-profit content?

    2) Is the person who made the product and is selling it under an editorial license themselves free to use the product however? I know this seems like a dumb question, but as far as I can tell the point of the licene is so that real-life products/textures/IPs etc. can be used without worry of legal reprocussion. So if someone made an, idk, Twilight Sparkle character under an editorial licence, are they actually free to use that product themselves commercially? I'd assume not...? Same goes for products that use real-life-sourced textures.

    This isn't a call to action or witch hunt by any means, just genuine questions I have that I can't find an answer to on the license page 

    Post edited by arks0ng on
  • KeryaKerya Posts: 10,943

    In this case both products are being sold by Daz (Daz Originals) and I don't think the promo pictures were done by Merlin Studios ...

  • arks0ng said:

    So here's a question. The (very cool looking) Cyber Garage | Daz 3D product uses Cyber Racer | Daz 3D in its promos, a product which has an editorial license. Now, since both products are by Merlin, obviously they've got more room to use them, but it's made me wonder.

    1) Do promo pictures count as "commercial use"? Could a pa use a product with an editorial license as part of a picture promoting/advertising their for-profit content?

    2) Is the person who made the product and is selling it under an editorial license themselves free to use the product however? I know this seems like a dumb question, but as far as I can tell the point of the licene is so that real-life products/textures/IPs etc. can be used without worry of legal reprocussion. So if someone made an, idk, Twilight Sparkle character under an editorial licence, are they actually free to use that product themselves commercially? I'd assume not...? Same goes for products that use real-life-sourced textures.

    This isn't a call to action or witch hunt by any means, just genuine questions I have that I can't find an answer to on the license page 

    1. Commercial use?  This would cover both direct sales (such as creating an image and selling it) and promotional use (like ads, or a portfolio an artist shows to prospective clients).  

    2. A creator/author/originator of content wouldn't be a licensee, unless they had sold or assigned their rights to another party.  Therefore, they wouldn't be bound by the same terms as those of us purchasing licenses.  You'd need to hear from a PA or Daz itself to know the precise terms of use for content by the PA when it is sold at Daz.  There could be a number of special stipulations.

  • AndrewJJPAndrewJJP Posts: 720

    Dumb question from someone that has only just read about this and hasn't gone through all 15 pages.

    Is this an accurate summary...

    • There are items for sale here that I am not allowed to use in renders that I sell on DA.
    • There is nothing in the product page to tell me which items they are.
    • There is nothing in the cart to tell me which items they are.
    • There is nothing to tell me at the point I add an item to the scene.
    • I only find out when I install them.

    On the plus side, there is only a tiny number of items affected by this. (?)

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024

    rcourtri_789f4b1c6b said:

    2. A creator/author/originator of content wouldn't be a licensee, unless they had sold or assigned their rights to another party

     If they created a 3D model of a product that someone else has designed and is/was manufacturing in real life, they would need a license just like the rest of us.

  • AndrewJJPAndrewJJP Posts: 720

    AndrewJJP said:

    Dumb question from someone that has only just read about this and hasn't gone through all 15 pages.

    Is this an accurate summary...

    • There are items for sale here that I am not allowed to use in renders that I sell on DA.
    • There is nothing in the product page to tell me which items they are.
    • There is nothing in the cart to tell me which items they are.
    • There is nothing to tell me at the point I add an item to the scene.
    • I only find out when I install them.

    On the plus side, there is only a tiny number of items affected by this. (?)

    And it also seems that the licence can change at any point. Has that happenened in practice? Would I be told if it happened for an item I've bought in a way I will notice, say an email? Or is this just a theoretical concern.

    I'm just trying to work out what I need to do here. There may be are items I am selling on DA I shouldn't be. Should I be keeping an inventory of every item I've ever used in a picture that I'm selling and checking their licences status of each on a regular basis, then withdrawing the image from sale if the terms changed underneath me?

    Surely that can't be right. I must be misunderstanding this???

    I just sell some pics on DA and make a small amount of money that goes towards assets. I don't have a legal team to check with, as one of the comments above suggests! But I don't want to be doing anything I shouldn't be, and I might want refunds on things I can't use.

  • joannajoanna Posts: 1,531
    edited March 21

    AndrewJJP said:

    Dumb question from someone that has only just read about this and hasn't gone through all 15 pages.

    Is this an accurate summary...

    • There are items for sale here that I am not allowed to use in renders that I sell on DA.
    • There is nothing in the product page to tell me which items they are.

    There is a note on the item's page that states the item is for editorial use only (e.i. not for commercial products)—it replaces the information about other licenses (interactive & 3d printing ones). The visibility of that note had been argued by users ad nasueam, but Daz doesn't care. There's an also forum thread where users report all the editorial license items as they're released, so you can check your runtime against it.

    Example of a listing with an editorial license. The license note is in the bottom right of the screenshot.

    And it also seems that the licence can change at any point. Has that happenened in practice? Would I be told if it happened for an item I've bought in a way I will notice, say an email? Or is this just a theoretical concern.

    It happened once (from what I can tell): a hair item was pulled from the store because of its copyrighted name. So, the users who got it, retained their commercial license (whether they should use it commercially, is another matter, though it's probably less risky, since the biggest concern was the product name), and new users simply can't purchase it anymore. License change would be impossible to keep track of (who bought it when and under which license) and prove ("it's editorial now, but when I got it, it wasn't!").

    In some cases, I think, the item was pulled from the store and then reinstated with editorial license. In these cases, I'd keep an eye on the forum (and the editorial and sales reporting threads) as people will report concerns and ask whether something should be under the editorial license, and you'll have time to return the product if you already bought it.

    I'm just trying to work out what I need to do here. There may be are items I am selling on DA I shouldn't be. Should I be keeping an inventory of every item I've ever used in a picture that I'm selling and checking their licences status of each on a regular basis, then withdrawing the image from sale if the terms changed underneath me?

    Surely that can't be right. I must be misunderstanding this???

    I just sell some pics on DA and make a small amount of money that goes towards assets. I don't have a legal team to check with, as one of the comments above suggests! But I don't want to be doing anything I shouldn't be, and I might want refunds on things I can't use.

    The most reasonable thing in this case is what many users in similar situation do: do not buy anything with an editorial license, period. It's not worth keeping track. If you happen to already have one or two items, delete them from your runtime and make a note somewhere so that you won't install them again.

    In general, people might argue that the risk is low if you make little money etc., but it's up to each person how they handle such risk and if it's worth to them. To me (and many other users, from what I've seen), it's not.

    editorial example.png
    1073 x 498 - 583K
    Post edited by joanna on
  • GordigGordig Posts: 10,091

    AndrewJJP said:

    Dumb question from someone that has only just read about this and hasn't gone through all 15 pages.

    Is this an accurate summary...

    • There are items for sale here that I am not allowed to use in renders that I sell on DA.
    • There is nothing in the product page to tell me which items they are.
    • There is nothing in the cart to tell me which items they are.
    • There is nothing to tell me at the point I add an item to the scene.
    • I only find out when I install them.

    On the plus side, there is only a tiny number of items affected by this. (?)

    The license is displayed on the product page, so you can see it before you add it to the cart, same as with interactive and 3D printing licenses.  As for a notification when you add something to a scene, you don't get that for other license types, either.

  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 14,106

    The product page tells you if it's an Editorial License product. If so then you may not use it in images you sell. All other products are covered under the standard EULA and can be used in the sale of 2D artwork. As far as the license change you would need to speak with CS about that. It has happened where it was mistakenly marked, but we are unaware of the outcome for those who already purchased the product.

  • ColinFrenchColinFrench Posts: 647

    AndrewJJP said:

    Dumb question from someone that has only just read about this and hasn't gone through all 15 pages.

    Is this an accurate summary...

    • There are items for sale here that I am not allowed to use in renders that I sell on DA.
    • There is nothing in the product page to tell me which items they are.
    • There is nothing in the cart to tell me which items they are.
    • There is nothing to tell me at the point I add an item to the scene.
    • I only find out when I install them.

    On the plus side, there is only a tiny number of items affected by this. (?)

    1) Technically correct, although many renderings sold at DA appear to use copyrighted IP, I guess they're just willing to take the chance that the IP holder won't come after them.

    2) There's an "Editorial License" note on the right side of an item's page in the Store but it's easy to miss, and from what I've read, it doesn't appear if you're shopping on your phone instead of a laptop or desktop computer.

    3) Correct.

    4) Correct.

    5) Not quite, see point #2 above.

    Generally speaking, people's complaints are that it's easy to miss the added license when shopping in the Store, and there's no way to filter out those items so you can avoid any issues entirely.

  • AndrewJJPAndrewJJP Posts: 720
    edited March 21

    frank0314 said:

    The product page tells you if it's an Editorial License product. If so then you may not use it in images you sell. All other products are covered under the standard EULA and can be used in the sale of 2D artwork. As far as the license change you would need to speak with CS about that. It has happened where it was mistakenly marked, but we are unaware of the outcome for those who already purchased the product.

    Thanks to all the people that replied. It's extremely helpful, I had no idea about any of this, and I suspect the same is true of most users.

    I don't think my feedback matters much given other comments, but I think it needs to stand out more, and be clear that the restriction you might care about is non-commercial use. Call it "Non-commercial" rather than "Editorial"?

    I make very little money, but I don't want to do anything wrong. I think...

    • I will check products before I use them in pictures I intend to sell in future.
    • I won't buy anything that has this licence in future.
    • I won't check the 2,500 items I've bought in the past. It's not practical, but if I spot any, I'll do what is suggested above and remove them.
    • I won't load every scene I've ever sold and check all the items that are in them. It's not practical. If I become aware of anything, I'll remove it.
    Post edited by AndrewJJP on
  • joannajoanna Posts: 1,531

    AndrewJJP said:

    • I won't check the 2,500 items I've bought in the past. It's not practical, but if I spot any, I'll do what is suggested above and remove them.

    You don't have to check 2500 items. You can go to the editorial thread I linked above and click on all the links there while you're logged in the store. If it shows the item as "purchased" for you, it means you have it. If not, then you're in the clear. The editorial thread lists all (or close to all) known editorial license items.

  • AndrewJJPAndrewJJP Posts: 720

    joanna said:

    AndrewJJP said:

    • I won't check the 2,500 items I've bought in the past. It's not practical, but if I spot any, I'll do what is suggested above and remove them.

    You don't have to check 2500 items. You can go to the editorial thread I linked above and click on all the links there while you're logged in the store. If it shows the item as "purchased" for you, it means you have it. If not, then you're in the clear. The editorial thread lists all (or close to all) known editorial license items.

    Thanks so much! I completely misunderstood, I'll check it now smiley

  • Matt_CastleMatt_Castle Posts: 2,592

    Given that some parts of today's car bundle have the restricted licence and other parts don't, I feel I need to re-express my displeasure at the extremely poor way these products are marked on store.

    It has long been possible to add an EL product to the basket without the store showing that it's EL. I know users have added some new Daz+ item to a cart to trigger a sales deal without ever properly inspecting the product page. One can add an item to the cart from the store's list page, check out with it, download it and use it without ever being shown a notification of the EL licence.

    Now that bundles can apparently include a mix of EL and non-EL products, we now have an entirely new way for users to purchase these products without being informed.

    Bundles SHOULD NOT include a mix of licences without being clear about the restrictions on the main bundle page; (Personally, I would argue that mixed bundle licences shouldn't be a thing at all, but if it is going to happen, it HAS to be clearly shown). The Star Trek Fan-Art bundle at least showed that the bundle was EL on its product page; this bundle does not have any warning on the bundle page about the mixed licencing.

    I continue to maintain that if Daz actually care about users following licences, they need to make this clearer in the store - in the thumbnail listings and in the cart - and provide a clear way to make it possible to keep track the restricted usage in Daz Studio itself; I do not have the time or patience to have to double check the licences on any asset I've grabbed out of Smart Content.

     

  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 10,024

    AndrewJJP said:

    And it also seems that the licence can change at any point. Has that happenened in practice? Would I be told if it happened for an item I've bought in a way I will notice, say an email? Or is this just a theoretical concern.

    Once you have bought a product with standard license, they cannot change the license to EL retroactively. That would be a breach of contract.
    If such a need would arise, they can only withdraw the product from the store, but you would still have standard license and be able to download and install the product from your Product Library.

  • AndrewJJPAndrewJJP Posts: 720

    PerttiA said:

    AndrewJJP said:

    And it also seems that the licence can change at any point. Has that happenened in practice? Would I be told if it happened for an item I've bought in a way I will notice, say an email? Or is this just a theoretical concern.

    Once you have bought a product with standard license, they cannot change the license to EL retroactively. That would be a breach of contract.
    If such a need would arise, they can only withdraw the product from the store, but you would still have standard license and be able to download and install the product from your Product Library.

    Thank you :)

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