CAR AND BIKE LOVERS THREAD - MARK III

GLWoodard

Robert Freise said:

betsy662 said:

Okay, I have to show a different set of wheels once in awhile!

Nice work
i can remember seeing trains like that go by my granddads huose

That one is available at Rendo, its a little pricey, but then, what decent train isn't? I remember seeing the Chief come through the Union Station in Denver when I was young, my dad was a cab driver and often would let me ride with him during the day, never let me ride with him at night however, wonder why?

John Sims

Tramp Graphics said:

none01ohone said:

Tramp.
I not sure how you would rig a steering assy, it the wheel is trapped between horizontal forks. I think that's why a generic set of forks rotate around a vertical column. Ever try'd to reverse a bike into a garage for example, difficult if you don't have much steering lock.

I've been messing about with some freebie FBX models I found on a 3DArtist Mag Disc.
Models are:

Opel Astra Sports Tourer 2011
Cadillac STS 2010

They were rendered in Luxu/Luxrender and as I've not let then run all week they have some firefly's.
After using Luxrender again, I realize that I need to experiment more with the glass shaders.

Well, as I said, those are not forks and don't turn at all. They're strictly suspension, just like on the back wheel of a "normal" motorcycle. The steering system is inside the hub of the wheel itself, hence the term hub center steering. The suspension and steering are separate. This is a much more advanced and safer system than forks. It does have more moving parts, though, as a result. Below are links to two videos of hub-center steering systems. The first is a hydraulic system showing just the steering system and suspension not connected to a bike (so no handlebars). The second is a video of the Bimota Tesi, which uses control arms.

ISR Hub Center Steering Demo

Bimota Tesi 3D

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking us. You obviously have some idea of what you want it to look like. What do you mean by rigging? The indicated mechanical components of the steering have no bearing on how the model is manipulated. With helpers and look ats the front wheel and handle bars could be floating in space and yet the handle bars could still turn the wheel.

John Sims

Terry The Tangerine Truck done move:-

http://youtu.be/0SrSUHB48G4

This was a physical simulation rig with Nvidia Mass Fx in 3DS Max 2014.

This is the first time I have used Mass Fx for suspension rigs (I previously used Reactor) and I'm not entirely happy as there remains a lot of flex in the linkages which I haven't been able to dial out.

I'm also not happy with the way it handles spring rates and damping and, while quicker to set up, doesn't seem to have the same level of control as Reactor.

John Sims

My latest freebie find project - my wife has a V8 Land Rover 90 called Fifi.

It is an astonishing model which is exceptionally good in parts and spectacularly bad in others - how do you muck up a Land Rover?

I seems to be double skinned in part but it isn't a case of the poly's created opposites during conersion as they don't all line up. It's almost as if there were two models but then the proportions aren't 100% so that doesn't make sense unless someone tried to bastardise the original.

The geometry is very poor on the skin to such an extent that I am tempted to start again, but then it also has some nice details.

Strange.

mjc1016

If it was originally a game conversion...the 'second' skin could be a 'crashed' version...there's a '64 Chevy Impala SS that has that problem.

none01ohone

John Sims said:

Nicely done - with the exception of the disgusting color on the Cadillac. But then it is such an outrageously ugly car any way I'm not sure it would look good in any color.

Thanks John.
That's a cool looking Freelander anim that. Makes me want go out and rob a bank so I can get 3DS Max.
**** Only joking**** <<< Just in case GCHQ see's this. :bug:</p>

I've seen some GTA models which also contain the crashed mesh.

John Sims

none01ohone said:

John Sims said:

Nicely done - with the exception of the disgusting color on the Cadillac. But then it is such an outrageously ugly car any way I'm not sure it would look good in any color.

Thanks John.
That's a cool looking Freelander anim that. Makes me want go out and rob a bank so I can get 3DS Max.
**** Only joking**** <<< Just in case GCHQ see's this. :bug:</p>

I've seen some GTA models which also contain the crashed mesh.

3DS Max was part of AutoCAD Design Suite Premium. It took me 3 years to pay for it + around £1,000 per year for subscription updates - I had a 20 year old "evaluation" copy previously. :-) It is a superb bit of kit which, even though I use it regularly, I'm still finding new cool things. It is also massively frustrating and time consuming as well. Every trick and skill is won through sweat and tears.

Thanks for the comment on the "crashed" meshes guys. I will see if I can isolate them through the material groups. It certainly hasn't been obvious so far and I would have thought they should have a unique reference.

none01ohone

John, in blender if you select an edge and hit the L key, it selects all that's connected to your selection.
I found that really useful when working with close meshes, obviously I don't know the max equivalent is though.

I guess that's basically what you said.

I almost got my hands on max last year, but I dropped a computer course due to work commitments and hence missed out on a 3 year teaching licensed version that came with the course. maybe I'll take the CAD course this year.. maybe.

John Sims

There are many ways of selecting many things - edge loop selection, material groups etc. So far, selecting loops and pulling them clear to delete the poly's is working but there still seems to be strange inverted normals.

Max is a great piece of kit but I have been quite surprised with what is possible with other, more economic, alternatives. Autodesk does seem to be moving to cloud based and "hire for use" solutions but education packs are, by far, the best value.

Tramp Graphics

John Sims said:

Tramp Graphics said:

none01ohone said:

Tramp.
I not sure how you would rig a steering assy, it the wheel is trapped between horizontal forks. I think that's why a generic set of forks rotate around a vertical column. Ever try'd to reverse a bike into a garage for example, difficult if you don't have much steering lock.

I've been messing about with some freebie FBX models I found on a 3DArtist Mag Disc.
Models are:

Opel Astra Sports Tourer 2011
Cadillac STS 2010

They were rendered in Luxu/Luxrender and as I've not let then run all week they have some firefly's.
After using Luxrender again, I realize that I need to experiment more with the glass shaders.

Well, as I said, those are not forks and don't turn at all. They're strictly suspension, just like on the back wheel of a "normal" motorcycle. The steering system is inside the hub of the wheel itself, hence the term hub center steering. The suspension and steering are separate. This is a much more advanced and safer system than forks. It does have more moving parts, though, as a result. Below are links to two videos of hub-center steering systems. The first is a hydraulic system showing just the steering system and suspension not connected to a bike (so no handlebars). The second is a video of the Bimota Tesi, which uses control arms.

ISR Hub Center Steering Demo

Bimota Tesi 3D

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking us. You obviously have some idea of what you want it to look like. What do you mean by rigging? The indicated mechanical components of the steering have no bearing on how the model is manipulated. With helpers and look ats the front wheel and handle bars could be floating in space and yet the handle bars could still turn the wheel.Well, when it is rigged, the idea is that all of the parts involved in the steering system will move as they would in real life, not just the handlebars and front wheel. This includes the control arms and levers (for the linkage system) or hydraulic pistons (for a hydraulic system). Thus, if I stick with the mechanical linkage, it has to look like turning the handlebars left or right manipulates the left and right upper control arms up and down, which in turn move the L-levers, which then move the lower control arms forward and back, which then turn the front wheel left and right. If I switch to a hydraulic system, turning the handlebars left or right needs to move the upper piston rods up and down causing the corresponding lower pistons move forward and back to turn the wheel left or right. Thus, the intermediate parts between the handlebars and front wheel must move and look like they're actually working to turn the wheel. Also, the front suspension should be rigged to go up and down while maintaining the orientation of the front wheel. IT also needs to be noted that the handlebars and front wheel pivot along different axes. The handlebars rotate more along the X axis while the front wheel turns left and right more along the Y axis with the wheel spinning along the Z axis. Thus, it has to be rigged to work like it really would in real life with all of the various parts moving in conjunction to turn the front wheel left and right. Thus the question is which would be easier to rig in order to look functional, the mechanical linkage system or the hydraulic system? It's important that they do because even with the front fairing in place, all of these parts are still completely exposed to view. Thus, there can be no cheating.

John Sims

Tramp, in that case, the answer is pretty obvious - hydraulic.
As there is no direct mechanical link chain you can link the handlebars to the front wheel pivot and use them to drive the pistons.

If you use a mechanical linkage all the components in the chain will have to move correctly.

Tramp Graphics

John Sims said:

Tramp, in that case, the answer is pretty obvious - hydraulic.
As there is no direct mechanical link chain you can link the handlebars to the front wheel pivot and use them to drive the pistons.

If you use a mechanical linkage all the components in the chain will have to move correctly.

Even though the front wheel and handlebars are not in line with one another and turn along different axes? And how would you keep the pistons or control rods in proper alignment? regardless of the system, the visible components need to move correctly. The only difference is that the hydraulic system doesn't link the upper and lower rods via a moving L-lever. And what about the suspension? If I can ever use this in animation, wouldn't the front and rear suspension need to be rigged to move up and down as well?

To clarify things a bit, the only rigging I've done is on clothing for characters, not vehicles or machines. I don't know if it's done the same basic way or uses a totally different system.

John Sims

Well yes Tramp obviously the suspension is going to have to be rigged as well.

If you are rigging for animation, unless you want to keyframe or graph control everything you might be better of using a physical simulation as I did in the Freelander video.

What system are you using and what constraint tools do you have at your disposal?

Tramp Graphics

I'm using Daz Studio 4.6, if that's what you're asking. The only rigging I know is how you rig clothes for figures using bones and weight maps, and even there I'm an amateur and mostly rely on the Transfer Utility. I've downloaded some vehicles which are rigged and their "parts" breakdown looks very different in the scene tab. Instead of having bones, it simply looks like they're made up of multiple parented objects. That's why I ask if rigging a vehicle or machine is different from rigging a character or clothes. WIll I be sending this over to DAZ as one piece or in separate parts?

As far as "Constraint tools" I have no idea what you're talking about. My plan is to rig this so it can be used for both stills (for comic books and single shot images) and, potentially, animation.

John Sims

Well yes, a vehicle is compleltly different to a person as people use a deformable skin over a bone structure. A person (with the exception of hair) only has three or four components( body, eyes, mouth). These are then manipulated by helpers which, with people, is the bone rig.

Most vehicles are made up of rigid parts. As it is often easier to model component parts these are linked together in groups or assemblies.

If these components are to be moved individually, or in groups, they have to be linked or constrained in some way. I don't think DAZ has the fuctionality to manipulate these constraints as it isn't intended as a fabrication tool.

blender_3d_lover_52ce199f05

music had a tut for poser that was dedicated to simple rigs for vehicles and the basics will relate to cars or bikes
but more to the point the wheels would need a rotational center point that is an all axis origin
that would be the center of the hub itself
the wheel would be parented to the axle assembly with the same centers
and that would then be centered to the swing arms
the swing arms center would have to be at its center of attachment and rotation
which would b the hard mounting points
you can use the constraints to limit or lock individual part rotation on a single vertex axis to keep a wheel from rotating out of normal
as for the groupings and other stuff i know that philc has some free tuts out and there are millions of people out there that know alot more than i do
but as for the design aspect
i build bikes for family and friends so that is the area of my skills

Tramp Graphics

simpleplanning said:

music had a tut for poser that was dedicated to simple rigs for vehicles and the basics will relate to cars or bikes
but more to the point the wheels would need a rotational center point that is an all axis origin
that would be the center of the hub itself
the wheel would be parented to the axle assembly with the same centers
and that would then be centered to the swing arms
the swing arms center would have to be at its center of attachment and rotation
which would b the hard mounting points
you can use the constraints to limit or lock individual part rotation on a single vertex axis to keep a wheel from rotating out of normal
as for the groupings and other stuff i know that philc has some free tuts out and there are millions of people out there that know alot more than i do
but as for the design aspect
i build bikes for family and friends so that is the area of my skills

Actually, given that this is a hub center steering system, the front wheel spins around the hub. The hub itself does not spin and is a separate piece from the wheel. It only turns left and right. Thus, the front wheel needs two rotational joints—one for the hub, one for the wheel.

blender_3d_lover_52ce199f05

no that is the reason that you parent the wheel to the hub
if you parent the hub to the wheel the hub would follow the wheel and not the wheel following the hub

think of it like this a hand is a child of the forearm which is a child of the upper arm because the main control point it the shoulder
the next control point is the elbow
and then the wrist
while all 3 move somewhat independently on their own axis and radius's the wrist and elbow are also moved as dictated by the position of the shoulder
the swing arm would be the shoulder and the hub center the elbow
the wheel or wrist would rely on the elbow for direction

John Sims

Forget the steering (for the moment) and do the back wheel first.

Create a dummy rig so that you can see what is happening and adjust as necessary. You can then link the actual components to the parts on the dummy rig.

GLWoodard

Woe, all this technical stuff! Gotta get some pictures goin' here!

John Sims

betsy662 said:

Woe, all this technical stuff! Gotta get some pictures goin' here!

Indeed so. That's quite a cutie...and the girl's pretty sweet as well. :-)

Tramp Graphics

simpleplanning said:

no that is the reason that you parent the wheel to the hub
if you parent the hub to the wheel the hub would follow the wheel and not the wheel following the hub

think of it like this a hand is a child of the forearm which is a child of the upper arm because the main control point it the shoulder
the next control point is the elbow
and then the wrist
while all 3 move somewhat independently on their own axis and radius's the wrist and elbow are also moved as dictated by the position of the shoulder
the swing arm would be the shoulder and the hub center the elbow
the wheel or wrist would rely on the elbow for direction

Of course the wheel needs to be parented to the hub. I was just clarifying that the hub is separate from the wheel and thus, each needs it's own "bone".

As for the swing arms, there are an upper and lower pair (to keep the proper orientation of the wheel) each on their own pivot points. there's also the axis on the pistons to keep them level too and another to keep them oriented to the angle of the piston rods as they move with the wheel or handlebars.

Forget the steering (for the moment) and do the back wheel first.

Create a dummy rig so that you can see what is happening and adjust as necessary. You can then link the actual components to the parts on the dummy rig.

I'm nowhere near ready to rig yet. I'm still building. That's why I needed to make the decision on what type of control system to use. Both types of steering system are ending up with a lot of moving parts. I've kept copies of both systems and ultimately, the choice probably needs to come down to which requires the fewest moving parts.

Tramp Graphics

Well, I've got the new steering control system completed as well as the brakes and miniguns. All I need now is the front fairing. Finding the right place to mount the guns and fitting the ammo drums was not easy.

bigh

betsy662 said:

Woe, all this technical stuff! Gotta get some pictures goin' here!

great car

John Sims

Tramp Graphics said:

Well, I've got the new steering control system completed as well as the brakes and miniguns. All I need now is the front fairing. Finding the right place to mount the guns and fitting the ammo drums was not easy.

I don't know, I always seem to be the negative one. The guns seem to have a pretty minuscule calibre.

The whole point of the revolving barrels in a mini gun is to stop the barrels overheating. They overheat due to a very high rate of fire. This being the case your magazines would empty in seconds.

This link might be of interest.

http://military.discovery.com/tv-shows/ultimate-weapons/videos/ultimate-weapons-dillon-aero-gatling-gun.htm

and another

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3vGobePvnTQ

A .22LR mini gun would be pretty unpleasant for a soft target but not much use against anything else.

You were the one who said you wanted everything to be physically accurate. ;-)

GLWoodard

And here's another variation of the same car!

John Sims

betsy662 said:

And here's another variation of the same car!

Ooooo! Very sexy. Ding dong.

Tramp Graphics

John Sims said:

Tramp Graphics said:

Well, I've got the new steering control system completed as well as the brakes and miniguns. All I need now is the front fairing. Finding the right place to mount the guns and fitting the ammo drums was not easy.

I don't know, I always seem to be the negative one. The guns seem to have a pretty minuscule calibre.

The whole point of the revolving barrels in a mini gun is to stop the barrels overheating. They overheat due to a very high rate of fire. This being the case your magazines would empty in seconds.

This link might be of interest.

http://military.discovery.com/tv-shows/ultimate-weapons/videos/ultimate-weapons-dillon-aero-gatling-gun.htm

and another

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3vGobePvnTQ

A .22LR mini gun would be pretty unpleasant for a soft target but not much use against anything else.

You were the one who said you wanted everything to be physically accurate. ;-)I don't know about them being too small. They're about the same size as the guns in this picture. As for the magazines, I'm not sure how much bigger I can get without moving them, if even that would work. There's really not a lot of space to work with.

John Sims

Tramp Graphics said:

... They're about the same size as the guns in this picture.......

Oh, they must be fine then.

usherstang

hey tramp nice work on the bike its looking gr8 keep it up