General: what forum we need, too?
Frank__
Posts: 302
Stupid title. I wasn't sure if it was okay to post something on the "Should we start a new Render thread?"- or the "I made this image for professional use."-thread, so I started a new one ... :)
I found the discussion on the "I made this image for professional use."-thread very useful and I would like to see more of this kind of discussion going on.
Answering the "how do I ..." and "this is not working ..." threads is of course essential and I'm the last one to diminish it (just yesterday I had to check Google to find an answer I already discovered myself :) Hint: to search the old forums use something like this: "smoothing modifier site:forumarchive.daz3d.com"
What I want: some possibilty to talk straight: someone post a render which is crap, call it crap. A render which is nice and nothing else call it nice and trvial. Don't call it "there's something to do about it", if there's nothing anyone can do about it. Call it "there's something to do about it" if there's something to do about it. And then tell what to do.
Yay, that's calling for some more professionalism, which I'm personally far away from. But I still think we need some rougher playground before e.g. entering the real world at cg-society.
Or something.
edit: oh, so parapgraph breaks. Talk about professional.
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Comments
While I agree with you, this is NOT the place to do it. I've tried for years to get people to discuss issues, but unfortunately there are a lot of very sensitive egos here, and doing what you're suggesting will turn into name calling and childish tit-for-tat. It's almost guaranteed.
It takes skill and training to be able to objectively give and receive criticism, and it also takes a real desire to learn. Honestly, I think a lot of that is missing here. Keep in mind the reasons why people are here...they are hobbyists who found some neat software, a few of them make some money on what they produce, but in general they are not highly trained professionals. Most do this for their own enjoyment, not to become skilled masters.
And to give you an idea of how difficult your suggestion will be, just watch....I'm pretty sure that even the fairly objective analysis I just wrote will initiate some scathing personal attacks instead of, like you suggest, some objective rebuttals and discussion.
Well before they do Joemamma2000 I would like to say I like the idea Frank but have to agree with Joe. Shame as I am one of those that would enjoy the process. I am a hobbyist wanting to become close to a master, well skilled at least. :) I think I proven to the ones who know me that I can take constructive critique as use if for what it is, help.
You can always join CG Society if you want to get critiqued on your work by professionals.
As far as the motivation behind artwork, I don't think it is important as most users are not professionals artists, animators or in anyway associated as CG professionals.
A curriculum vitae of one's graphics background isn't necessary to give a critique or offer assistance here on this forums that consist of varying levels of users.
Well I think everyone has expressed the general idea that a lot of folks here will not take criticism well. That said ---Nothing stopping anyone from starting a thread ----WIP projects critiques requested -----(Do not submit unless you can take the criticism) or something like that.
There are a number of people here who would be very helpful to point out ways to make your images better or animations better. It does take a lot of courage to get critiqued but its a very good way to learn ....and to grow better. Even though there are a lot of Hobbyist here do not sell them short -----they are here to make art or tell a story and I think most of them want to learn and improve their skills.
I agree with 3DView, don't sell people here short. I don't think most of the posters here want or need critique by master craftsmen professionals, and honestly I don't think most of those professionals would have the patience to respond to the needs of the people here.
I think the vast majority of what people need here is nothing more than the basic, basics of image design, composition, lighting, etc., not a very in depth professional critique. And it's the kind of stuff that anyone here could provide with just a small amount of research and study. I guarantee that if most people here took the time and effort to read just one comprehensive book on graphics, they'd be in a position to address much of what's posted here.
This stuff is not rocket science. But too often I see people who won't take the tiniest effort to learn some basic skills, and instead dig their heels in with the position "I know what I know and I don't want to know no mo', and how dare you question my artistic abilities".
Maybe as time goes on, and a new group of people come on board, and the egos will slowly fade away and the teachers and learners will step forward. Because, at least in my opinion, it's a whole lot more fun if you really explore and learn about the craft rather than just sit at your computer and play with pink ponies.
Hey Critiquing is easy.
Trouble is people get critiquing mixed up with criticism, which it is not.
I once gave a friend of mine a story to read and his critique was "Did you write this when you were very tired or something."
That's not a critique, that's a criticism.
A proper critique starts off on a positive note and ends on a positive note.
These positive notes are just as important as the meat in the middle.
Both the critiquer and the artist are human beings with egos and personalities - and people often forget this also.
As an example, take a look at this old thread and you will see criticism and not critique.
http://forumarchive.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=175357
I do not find "What Da fuk is Dat?" very helpful as a critique on my YouTube videos %-P
likewise, "Why do you upload this shit?"
but if they take the time to point out actual bits that need improving (given the enormity of areas to tackle) I do pay attention.
mind you I get a lot of criticism on my saggy floppy CG boobs telling me I need to learn how to do proper firm boobs not nana boobs.
(like those found static ones by default on figures I suppose that act like silicone implants %-P )
I put a lot of work into making floppy saggy boobs that swing with movements, want to do more with bellies and arses too!
my efforts are not appreciated. :red:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-3rTUIo5YQ
naughtier non-red/cyan anaglyph
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJbuVCjDjGg
(those were done in iClone using mostly Daz content including Genesis for the Lycan stripper)
yes floppy saggy boobs are hard to do :)
I once received 'critique' on an atrocious video I made:
mind you it was from this person :)
http://www.youtube.com/user/johnshepherdsg
actually given he is only 22 and a bit of a one software fanboi one eyed dork, his modelling quite good!
(I cannot use Blender for shit!)
I know how good your stuff is already but if he commented on my video I would indeed listen!
my harshest commenters and critics never have videos on their channels when I look.
so they must be above posting their skillful work, pity as I could learn how they would do it otherwise.
...and your just talking about the administrators! (LOL)
Seriously, I agree with you completely.
Are we still talking about it, or doing it?
Call it the BRUTALLY HONEST RIP ME TO SHREDS AND MAKE ME CRY thread
Seems simple *shrug* no one is posting any pics as it is.
How about we have an informal rule that you have to try several of the suggestions and repost the results, or just do a better job and repost the results. Can be a Before/After and we see if there is any merit to this brutal honesty business..., or is it just egofapping?
What I always find amusing is that it is seldom the person who is being critiqued that does the complaining - they normally accept good advice - it's others who jump on board and have a go at the critiquer (is there such a word?)
Heh there is now Roy :)
nice to see you back too
and how true what you said!
Hi head wax
Yeah, I've been lurking here since the Dawn of the New Era
My rule on forums is that if I have nothing useful to say, I don't say it.
Woops, just broken that rule
Cheers
Haha :) No that was useful because you have put your hand up and said 'I am here, I will be a critiquer'! Critiquers of the world unite... :)
And that's fine if those are your rules. Mine are, in fact, even stricter, and I don't limit my rules
to only those who are providing critiques, I expect and require it of everyone in every interaction
I have with people, both in person and online.
I not only want them to start out by saying how wonderful I am, how handsome I am, and what an honor it
is for them to have the opportunity to interact with me. At the end I also expect them to thank me, to
tell me how wonderful it was to interact with me, and to re-affirm what a wonderful person I am. And since
I have feelings too, I won't accept anything remotely negative. Everything has to be worded as a positive.
If my image sucks, they have to say "that's the nicest image I've ever seen", stuff like that.
If they don't do this, and also intersperse our discussions with proclamations of how wonderful I am,
I refuse to accept whatever they're saying.
But for some strange reason, I can't get anyone to abide by my rules. Heck, even the people here who preach
being nice are incredibly rude.
Bottom line, you can require whatever you want from people. But if you won't accept what people tell you
unless they do it by your rules, the only person who will suffer is you.
IMO, A very useful skill to learn is how to focus on what is helpful, and pass on that which isn't, no matter how it's delivered.
And BTW, with all due respect to the nice lady who teaches the night school art class, there is no universally accepted rule that says you need to sandwich any "difficult" critique between two niceties. In fact, a lot of people would be more offended at being treated like a child with such prepackaged and insincere manipulations than by receiving the straight story. Sure, there are those out there who teach, and seem to think, that the whole world needs such ego stroking, but that doesn't make it true.
Giving and receiving critique is difficult, and requires a lot of skill and knowledge on both ends to make it useful. Real, useful critique has a purpose and clear goals, and takes a lot of work. But if people are more concerned about being offended than learning, there's no amount of niceties that will make any difference. And in my experience, that's usually the real reason why people don't take criticism well.
Although I should mention that what some refer to as the "happy sandwich" certainly does provide some benefits for those who find it a bit patronizing....
While having beer after work, some find that developing variations on the "happy sandwich" makes for a lot of laughs. And usually they are along the lines of:
"Wow, I love what you've done with your hair. Oh, and by the way, your demo reel is dog turd. Did you lose weight?"
Okay, I've really gone the extra mile for you guys this time...
For the longest time I've wondered where the heck our new employees and interns, right out of school, were getting this "happy sandwich" technique training. Many of us old timers noticed it's a fairly recent thing (relatively), but it seemed to be affecting a lot of students.
So I just did some research to find out where it all came from. I assumed that if it was being taught in the schools it must have been from peer-reviewed scientific studies by behavioral analysts, lots of scientific thought and testing put into it, and so on.
Well, it seems like this "sandwich your criticism between two slices of praise" technique came from....(you ain't gonna believe this...) the lady who ran Mary Kay cosmetics. Yes, that's right. A lady who runs a cosmetics firm.
Now, in no way would I belittle her accomplishments, but seriously, if a technique seems to work in her particular company with a sales staff of, presumably, mostly women, are we to believe that it's a technique that should be applied across all creative industries and people?
Now, I might be wrong on this, but it sure seems like everyone references her management book when they discuss this technique.
Anyway, just some food for thought........
If you can't cook or run a restaurant, you critique.
A sentence often repeated by restaurant owners and Chefs who are under the teeth of a journalist food critic.
Culinary art has even become an accepted way to describe the process for the creation of food.
All those cliches that describe what we like. "A thing of beauty"; "It captures form and function"; "The genre - blah blah"
Something that is "artful" takes many forms and can be many things. One hundred lines of elegant programming flawlessly displayed and executed is a "thing of beauty."
A sleek performance car that makes one's senses become heightened to the point of fantasy when one hears the powerful engine.
or
Three pointed, spikey things jutting from the ground as metal sculpture appear gaudy to some, but a symbol of permanence to others.
I notice that some people who critique desperately want to become a teacher of sorts. There is a need for them to fill their 'inner ego' with some sort of uninvited 'mentor status.' Nothing wrong with that as long as they recognize that their status is artificial and sometimes the reality of interactive discussion may become the "fly in their soup."
Most critiques on Daz forums fall under the category of technical assistance and not art. Like, should I use 'booleans' to make this or what kind of lighting should I use.
Before I become too verbose and stray too far, I shall repeat one of my favorite jokes that keeps me humble because it expresses the common sense that on occasion brings us back to reality.
A food critic was wandering around a fresh vegetable and fruit market. He came across some beautiful strawberries and wondered how the farmer behind the stand of beautifully displayed strawberries how he grew said strawberries.
The food critic asks, "Do you use manure on your strawberries?"
The farmer with a puzzled look replied matter-of-factly, "No sir, I like to use cream on mine."
FRANK I have never refereed to anyones work as CRAP! Even though it clearly is! I was a newbie at one time and that would of hurt my feelings. I do add my critical advice though. but always give my support!
Also yes like another added join an CG community site and trust me they have no issue with calling you or anyone else CRAP! But keep in mond MANY of these folks work in MAYA, MAX, LW and others and will tease you for your using these primitive toy tolls like carrara! LOL!
Wow, lots of comments ...
Sounds like a good idea, too.
Where could be the place? (See my badly formulated thread-title.) Maybe we need another (sub-)forum? Carrara-Cafe maybe?
At the moment you're proven wrong ...
I hope it stays so.
A critique thread is a good idea. If we're going to do it, we should seriously discuss and agree on some rules of conduct for the whole thing. When I was active in writer's critique groups, that's one of the first things you got to read, the rules of the game, so to speak. If you didn't play by the rules, you didn't get to play any more.
If were going to do this, we need to start a thread for discussion of rules and expectations, etc. Then we need to start the thing, making sure that our rules and expectations are posted clearly in the first post.
We also need to get the thread stickied or it will disappear into the depths of the Carrara forum never to be found again. That would hardly be useful.
So, who's going to be in charge and when do we start?
And, as expected, every discussion here where someone doesn't like what others are saying turns into a discussion and attack on personalities, instead a discussion of the issues.
You can criticize the criticizers if you want. You can look down your nose at those who judge others' work, and question their motives and giggle about their "ego".
But the fact remains. IF people are truly interested in learning a craft, whether it be cooking or 3D art or whatever, they don't care where they get new information that helps improve their skills. They take whatever they can get, from wherever they can get it. And they don't spend their time mocking others just because, in truth, it's their way of getting back at anyone who dares to criticize.
We can argue all day long about every issue associated with critique, and how you should do it, and how moronic the critiquers really are, and any other side issue you want to focus on. But at the end of the day, if you truly want to learn and improve your craft, all that incidental stuff goes out the door, and people leave their egos and biases aside, and roll up their sleeves and spend their time learning, not making excuses for why they don't.
But unfortunately, in this forum we always get bogged down in the ridiculous incidentals, because in truth most people just want to play, not learn.
Now, back to the main issue...
If there are some people here who are genuinely interested in starting a real critique thread, I can provide a compilation of rules used by some large studios.
However, keep in mind that this is serious business for most serious commercial enterprises, and the quality of their output is directly connected to their ability to have honest and effective critique. So the rules are comprehensive and require a lot on both sides. You may want to (actually, you WILL want to.... ) streamline them quite a bit for your purposes.
For example, questions like "here's my image, what do you think?" are not allowed. The asker has to provide purpose and goals, such as "I'm trying to impart a feeling of mystery and intrigue with this image, do you think I accomplished it?". The people on both ends have to do a lot of work to even start the process. Otherwise it becomes inefficient and useless. And the critiquer needs to cite facts and detailed rationale, rather than "I think you need more blue, cuz I like blue".
Again, it's a lot of work, there's no room for egos or biases, and there's no room whatsoever for discussing personalities. That might be real tough in this forum, so make sure you're up for the challenge.
And, as expected, every discussion here where someone doesn't like what others are saying turns into a discussion and attack on personalities, instead a discussion of the issues.
You can criticize the criticizers if you want. You can look down your nose at those who judge others' work, and question their motives and giggle about their "ego".
But the fact remains. IF people are truly interested in learning a craft, whether it be cooking or 3D art or whatever, they don't care where they get new information that helps improve their skills. They take whatever they can get, from wherever they can get it. And they don't spend their time mocking others just because, in truth, it's their way of getting back at anyone who dares to criticize.
We can argue all day long about every issue associated with critique, and how you should do it, and how moronic the critiquers really are, and any other side issue you want to focus on. But at the end of the day, if you truly want to learn and improve your craft, all that incidental stuff goes out the door, and people leave their egos and biases aside, and roll up their sleeves and spend their time learning, not making excuses for why they don't.
But unfortunately, in this forum we always get bogged down in the ridiculous incidentals, because in truth most people just want to play, not learn.
I was giving observations and examples not "attacking anyone."
Perhaps you need to carefully examine the person standing in your shoes before you "pigeon-hole" someone.
One of the first questions we will have to ask is, do we really want 'professional' level critique? Are the folks wanting to become 'professional' or do they just want tips and suggestions/critique on how to make their own personal artwork better. Not everybody here is on the professional career track. I'm guessing most just want to be better at using and understanding Carrara's capabilities and improving their art for their own sake.
If we pursue this, we will need to get a consensus on what sort of critique we as a group are wanting. I think once we have that consensus, then we can proceed to the next step which would be deciding rules of conduct and expectations from both parties. If we got the 'professional' route, then I think JoeMamma's information would be invaluable.
I'm not talking about a "professional level" critique. I'm talking about the basic basics, which, of course, professionals must consider in their critiques.
For example, IF you are evaluating images that are intended to be shown to others, and impart a feeling, emotion, or story to the viewer, you cannot evaluate them without addressing certain basic basics that deal with how people perceive images. That's where learning and the craft come into play. The craft is being able to generate images that affect viewers in a certain way.
However, if the purpose and goal for the images is "I was just playing around and made this image, what do you think?" then there is no evaluation or craft. It becomes solely "I like it" or "I don't like it", and nothing gets learned.
So I agree, if people only want a "what do you think" from others, which is basically what happens now in the render threads, then just make a "what do you think" thread.
I have to think that the level of folks in these forums run the gambit from professional or near professional all the way down to someone who has troubles with opening the program. That's a pretty varied bunch to deal with .
To have a critique thread to make everyone happy would be impossible ---so I would not be concerned with how it plays with everyone. To those who want to participate..who want to get better ....who can act like an adult -----It could be very beneficial.
And remember everyone benefits as there will be hints and suggestions that everyone might be able to use.
I think the idea of some rules or parameters makes sense but we do not want to get to bogged down with too many legalities. It should be about the art and making it better.
Rich
You're probably right. I do tend to over think things.