Modest GPU upgrade to system: Nvidia FX 4500.. vs GTX 1060 vs..Bitcoin??!
Consumer573
Posts: 282
THIS THREAD TAKES YOU THROUGH MY INQUIRIES FOR CHOOSING AND INSTALLING A GPU UPGRADE, INSTALLING NEW DDR3 RAM, AND BUYING A "NEW" CPU. MY TOTAL COST INVESTED IS LESS THAN $300 WITH THE BETTER PART OF THAT GOING TO THE GPU.
I have an Nvidia FX 4500. Seems to have 512mb memory. I know it's an old board, circa 2005. Am doing some updates to my system, which is largely 2011, and am looking at a moderate upgrade to the gpu at this time. An Nvidia 4000 with 2GB of memory was suggested as a good step up from where I am. The cost of a good used 4000 board seems to be about $100.
The next step up in memory seems to be an Nvida board with 3GB of memory for about $150, and then after that the 4Gb boards seem to be running about $400. I'm looking to stay under $200 as I have other mods to make. The machine I'm running is a Dell T7500. I am also Poser oriented, still.
One question is what do I look for in an upgrade board? I'm going primarily to quadruple my memory at this time. Anything else besides memory that I should be paying attention to?
What's currently the top end that folks are using for Daz and Poser in terms of memory and what they're looking for?
Anybody's thoughts would be appreciated.
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People have 32 to 128 GB of CPU memory and 4GB to 12 GB of VRAM on GPUs and may have multiple GPUs. This is for Studio. Don't know about Poser.
Iray rendering is not for the faint of hardware/
You should also be looking at the number of CUDA cores. If the "Nvidia 4000" you mentioned is the standard Quadro 4000 card, it not only has only 2 GB of onboard memory, but only has 256 CUDA cores (in gaming vernacular, these are usually referred to as shader units), and that isn't very many. Your renders will be limited by both memory and cores. You want as much memory as you can afford and as many CUDA cores as possible. By comparison, the Quadro K4000 cards have 3 GB of memory and 768 CUDA cores. Still not that great. The Quadro M4000 cards have 8 GB of memory and 1664 CUDA cores. However, the prices of the latter cards are significantly more. If you are on a budget your best price/performance ratios are going to be found in the non-quadro mainstream cards like the GTX series, whether new or used.
Oh, and insofar as the top end is concerned, that would either be a Maxwell-based GTX Titan X with 12 GB of memory and 3072 CUDA cores, or the more recent Pascal-based GTX 1080 with 8 GB of memory and 2560 CUDA cores. Both are quite expensive.
Your Dell Precision T7500 is not restricted to Quadro cards. Unless you need more than 12GB of Vram, there is no reason to go for a Quadro card. You can put consumer Geforce cards in with no issue. My T7500 is running a Geforce GTX 1060 6GB card.
Here are some Newegg.com links
$135 - 4GB GTX 1050ti (768 Cuda Cores)
$250 - 6GB GTX 1060 (1280 Cuda Cores)
$389 - 8GB GTX 1070 (1920 Cuda Cores)
$500 - 8GB GTX 1080 (2560 Cuda Cores)
Depending on what is under the hood on your T7500 you may just want to focus on upgrading your GPU for right now. (do you have the dual CPU setup in yours? and how much RAM is installed right now?) Nice thing about this machine, the stock power supply is a 1100W.
tried to quote then delete but wouldn't delete.
SITE THAT COMPARES PERFORMANCE OF TWO VIDEO BOARDS
With your comments above so far, I found this site which may interest you and others: www.game debate.com. On it it looks like you can compare the gaming difference between two boards.
This site says that compared to my current NVidia FX 4500 (512mb memory, and a whopping 8 [count 'em... 8!] Cuda Cores) going to a NVidia 4000 will yield a 218% performance improvement.
http://www.game-debate.com/gpu/index.php?gid=627&gid2=308&compare=quadro-4000-vs-quadro-fx-4500
It also says that compared to my NVidia FX 4500, going to a GeForce GTX 1060 (if that is the one you're talking about) for not much more money will yield a 2,077% performance improvement. Big Difference.
http://www.game-debate.com/gpu/index.php?gid=3540&gid2=308&compare=Nvidia%20GeForce%20GTX%201060-vs-Nvidia%20Quadro%20FX%204500
What's the downside of a GTX?
Where do the terms 'Open GL' and 'Sree3D' come into this?
"What's the downside of a GTX?"
The only downside of using a GTX card vs. a Quadro is really optimizations. In the simplest of terms, mainstream cards like the GTXs are optimized for frames per seconds (fps) since that is what is important to the target gaming community. The quadro cards tend to be optimized for detailed display quality which is considered more important for applications such as CAD/CAM. That doesn't mean that GTX cards can't be used in workstations or that Quadro cards cannot be used for gaming, but simply that the best performance overall is in the particlar use that each is specifically designed for. The real kicker is the price tag, with the Quadro cards commanding much higher prices than their GTX "equivalents". Most Quadro cards, or at least the higher end/higher performance ones, tend to be used in corporate workstations where the cost is offset by the earnings from the work being performed.
If you are a hobbyist, you will not likely even notice any downside to using a GTX card, but the cost savings will be substantial. To put it another way, if someone needs to ask why a Quadro card might be better, they probably don't need one.
At this point, since your original post did not clearly say so, there will be a tendency for most users here on the DAZ forums to assume that you will be using DAZ Studio and, more specifically, the Iray render engine. Since you were focusing on memory, that would be a logical assumption, as memory will limit your ability to use your GPU for rendering in Iray as the entire scene must fit into the video memory or the render will default to your CPU and system memory. The latter is less desireable as the render will take much longer to complete under such circumstances. The point is that most of the responses are based upon that initial assumption, so bear that in mind and correct us if we are wrong. You mention that you are a Poser user. That is significant since the use of an Nvidia card is not a prerequisite in that case. You can use either an AMD or Nvidia card as both the Firefly and Cycles based Superfly render engines will work with either.
"Where do the terms 'Open GL' and 'Sree3D' come into this?"
In the context of Poser, they refer to the display mode used onscreen (BTW, it is SreeD, not Sree3D). OpenGL is the hardware accelerated viewscreen option which should be faster, and SreeD uses software, and is presumably slower.
The 12+ GB of ram has to with how Iray does GPU based rendering. The whole scene needs to fit in the VRAM or the whole task gets dumped down to your CPU. Needing 12GB or mor will come in play when you compose very large or complex scenes.
The Quadro cards have the same GPU chips as their equivalent Geforce cards. The big difference is in the memory and the drivers. For the CG enthusiast, the GTX line of Geforce cards are your best option.
For the budget conscious, the GTX 1060 gives the best price vs performance vs VRAM point. If you can scrape together more money, get the 1070 or 1080.
Do the GPU upgrade first.
About your computer itself, here are a few important things to remember.
The Dell Precision T7500:
RAM: ECC REG DDR3 memory, 6 slots in a tripple channel configuration (12 slots in a 6 channel config if your are running 2 CPUs) This means that you should run matched sets of 3 sticks (6 sticks with 2 CPUs). [A 24GB set 6x4GB will run you $39.00 on ebay] The maximum RAM is 96GB single CPU or 192GB Dual CPU.
CPU: all Intel Xeon E5500, E5600, X5500, or X5600 CPUs are supported. For best performance you want to run the E5600 or X5600 series CPUs. The 6 Core CPUs are E5645, E5649 and X5650 - X5690. [The Xeon X5675 3.06Ghz 6 core CPU starts at $50.95 on ebay]
CPU Heatsink: There are 3 heatsinks that your machine can be equiped with for the primary CPU socket. Part# T021F (This is all aluminum, it is the cheapest and least good, it's probably what is inside your machine). Part# U016F (This is the midrange with copper heatpipes You can find them on ebay for around $15.00. This is the one I have in my machine). Part# U402F (This is the best one and is quite expensive... around $79.00 on ebay)
2nd CPU riser card: Part# H236F You will need one of these if you want to add a second CPU to your system. Make sure to get the whole kit that includes: Heatsink, Fan, and Shroud. The "Kits" start around $120.00 on ebay.
Wow. Thank you SixDS and JamesJab. Really good information. And thanks for the link to memory. Looks like a good vendor with lots of sales.
I'm Poser and CAD more than gaming, and currently NOT Iray, which it sounds like is the only renderer that is really making use of the GPU as far as Daz/Poser verse is concerned??
The question comes up based on what you said, sixDS: with Poser and firefly what does the heavy lifting in a render, the RAM memory or the GPU? It sounds like with IRay the heavy lifting is attempted first with a GPU and then if the card can't handle the render it reverts to CPU / RAM.
I'm not sure if I'm up to replacing CPUs; I'm always afraid of damaging some Pins, but JamesJab you make it sound easy and I'm going to hold on to this information. I'm increaslingly impressed with my T7500. I researched the heck out of it originally then pounced on one used off a three year lease. Until the T7500 I always built my own from scratch and this was about 20% of the price for about 80% of what I was looking for at the time.
On my T7500 I seriously lucked out. I fouund mine on ebay with dual quad core CPUs sitting at $100 and zero bids, so I put it on my watch list. At the last min. I put in my maximum price I'd be willing to pay ($150) and it ended at $103 + $50 shipping. Then I ordered a 24GB (6x4GB) set of memory, and after lokking inside I ordered the $15 CPU heatsink. Installed Win 7 Pro using the COA on the tower and did the free upgrade to Win10 Pro. All in all it was a $200 Windoes 10 Pro Workstation.
For your non-Iray life: I will still recomment the GTX 1060 6GB, because it is at the great tradeoff point between price and performance. If you start dabbling in Iray it will be strong enought to handle most scenes. You want to beef up the CPU(s) and the RAM. Do not be afriad of "pins", these CPU's are what is known as a BGA (ball grid aray). The CPU just has contact points on the underside, the pins are in the socket
Well, So far I've taken your advice and actually got the 24GB of memory from the site you suggested (after looking around) for about $40. The 8GB chips are still modestly pricey so I went with 4Gbx6 for now like you did. I haven't installed it yet, but it looks good.
The 1060 GTX you recommend is popular and currently seems to be trading at a premium to its mfr suggested prices. The card's 6gb reference design gets good reviews.
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA85V4TJ3767&cm_re=gtx_1060-_-14-487-261-_-Product
New Egg $398.98
I'm kind of looking for an EVGA single fan superclocked version and am hoping that the prices might drop in the next month or two, closer to the $200 range instead of $300 or more currently, as some folks get new computers for the autumn season.
You did Very well with your T7500!!
EVGA 1050 TI SC, about $129.00 on Newegg. 4gb memory, factory overclocked. Not as fast as a 1060, but a lot cheaper.
That's a possibility. I'm wondering why the 1060 6gb has become so popular as to be at such a premium.
https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=04G-P4-6253-KR
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487290&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleAdwords-PC-_-pla-_-Video+Card+-+Nvidia-_-N82E16814487290&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI24n-w7SX1QIVjTuBCh0fbADTEAQYASABEgIVHvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
https://www.evga.com/products/productlist.aspx?type=0&family=GeForce+10+Series+Family
Also looks like the price point for 4Gb Nvidia quadro cards, used, is currently about $100 on ebay,
Dell Nvidia Quadro FX 5800 4GB GDDR3 PCI-Express Video Card 1HKHC w/ Warranty $99 buy it now
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=nvidia+quadro+8gb&_sop=15&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.Xnvidia+quadro+4gb.TRS0&_nkw=nvidia+quadro+4gb&_sacat=0
I guess, right now 4GB is the 'ditch it' point and 6 gb and above is the replacement because the jump in pricr to go from 4gb to 6gb is $100 vs $300, approximately.
COMPARISON
Note: Cuda Cores (Graphics Parallel processing loops): GTX 1060 \ GTX 1050 \ FX5800 : 1280 \ 758 \ 240
Memory Type: GTX 1060 \ GTX 1050 \ FX5800 : GDDR 5 \ GDDR5 \ GDDR3
On board Memory: GTX 1060 \ GTX 1050 \ FX5800 : 6GB \ 4GB \ 4GB
The Quadro FX cards are very old and slow, not sure if they even support Iray.
OK, as long as my FX4500 doesn't die completely, I think you've convinced me to wait for a Pascal generation card.
Supposedly the data mining craze for etherium / bitcoin has really distorted the graphics card market at the moment, but it is volatile, meaning if I watch closely I might get a good price. I wonder how many college students come home for the summer and just decided to try their hands at mining. The 1050 GTX 4GB superclocked card is $200-270 when it was about $116 in April (ref Camel Camel Camel Amazon) [scroll down past enter price watch entries to see chart of price history on Amazon]:
https://camelcamelcamel.com/EVGA-GeForce-Support-Graphics-04G-P4-6253-KR/product/B01MF7EQJZ
...and the similar 1060 is running about $350-450. The 1050 is trading higher at former 1060 prices, and the 1060 is trading at former 1070 prices. And these are supposedly second choices to Radeon for what they're doing in mining.
https://camelcamelcamel.com/EVGA-GeForce-Support-Graphics-06G-P4-6163-KR/product/B01IPVSLTC?context=search
The charts of product show seasonality as well as volatility (spikes) so maybe I can wait a few weeks and see what happens. I never expected to have to hook into the equivalent of the stock market when looking ffor a video card!
By comparison an Etherium currency chart which shows a correlating pop in the last few months:
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/ethereum/
And an explanation from Tom's Hardware:
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/ethereum-effect-graphics-card-prices,34928.html
Some articles warn about buying used GPUs on ebay in the next year to 18 months as the theory goes that they will have been really heavilly used by the data miners.
Buying a used GPU is not bad, as long as you know what the warranty is (How long and if it is transferable to the second owner)
newegg lowest GPU prices as of 3:45PM (1545) Monday July 24th 2017 UTC
GTX 1050 ti 4GB - $154.99 - ZOTAC GeForce GTX 1050 Ti DirectX 12 ZT-P10510E-10L 4GB 128-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 HDCP Ready Low Profile Video Card
GTX 1060 6GB - $319.99 - ASUS GeForce GTX 1060 DUAL-GTX1060-O6G 6GB 192-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 HDCP Ready Video Card
GTX 1070 8GB - $479.99 - EVGA GeForce GTX 1070 SC2 GAMING iCX, 08G-P4-6573-KR, 8GB GDDR5, 9 Thermal Sensors, Asynchronous Fan Control, Thermal Display LED System, Optimized Airflow Fin Design, Die Cast/Form Fitted Baseplate/Backplate
GTX 1080 8GB - $549.99 - GIGABYTE GeForce GTX 1080 G1 Gaming GV-N1080G1 GAMING-8GD Video Card
GTX 1080 ti 11GB - 699.99 - GIGABYTE GeForce GTX 1080 Ti Turbo 11GD
Looks like the GTX 1050 ti up through the regular GTX 1080 fluctuate alot on newegg. Right now the 1050 ti and the 1080 only have a small premium on the price, and the GTX 1080 ti is almost completely uneffected by the mining boom. If you check newegg every day, it looks like they get cards in the sell for the right price... They just sell out very quickly leaving only the inflted ones in stock.
On Monday July 24th my computer was showing the $154 price for the GTX 1050 ti 4GB, Superclocked, along with a free game, BUT it was listed as out of stock (both Sunday and Monday). The site referred me to another newgg listing for the same item which I believe was about $219. I was frustrated because I looked to pull the trigger on Saturday, but then read that NewEgg woudn't do any processing or price changes except on business days. So I figured, No harm in waiting. What I did not consider was that they apparently allot a certain amount of stock at a given price. I checked all day on Sunday and Most of Monday. You may be right about the random restocking. The last time I checked the $154 price they had taken the price away and said that the item may or may not be re-listed. Now (during the writing of this posting) I see that I can buy it again....
I am also beginning to wonder how much price targeting affects what I am seeing. If I live in a High expense neighborhood and they offer free shipping, when they get my zip code I wonder if they calculate whether it is worth their while to let me have that offer at that price.
JamesJab, You are very thorough! Good Work, much appreciated.
I bought the EVGA 1050 ti SC about 2 months ago for $129.00 after $10.00 rebate. I think these prices are all about the bit miners.
The last I checked it was sold out. I suspect this is what you were looking at. I don't think your zip code affects the price, I live in a large golf course community in SE Florida, not extravagant, but not cheap either.
Thanks for the feedback, art3D.
I'm hoping also James Jab is still monitoring this thread occasionally:
I just put in 4Gb x6 memory and when I open up a Poser file, the fans now start screaming. Before, with 2Gbx6 memory they only speeded up when I was doing an intense render. The file that I opened was only using 8Gb of memory at max. My T7500 doesn't have an office tower with copper pipes or anything. I will have to check to see if I clogged anything while doing interior cleaning.
Is it normal in just changing memory from 12 Gb to 24Gb that it would cause the fans to go wild?
When I shut down the Poser file things went back to normal.
Do you know where I can get a utility to monitor temperature and fans in my Dell T7500? Is there a good Dell T7500 thread somewhere?
I had a thermal utility with my former asus computer and it really helped me diagnose a variety of problems.
I did get a GTX 1050 4Gb from NewEgg at $154 plus tax. But I haven't put it in yet as wanted to change the memory first. With the fans screaming when I run Poser I'm hesitant to put it in until I figure out why or if this is going to be normal.
Get http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/hwmonitor.html
Hmmmm,
You know what might be happening?... Now that you have double the system RAM, it may be able to use all of your CPU threads effectively during renders.
Yes make sure to clean out all of the dust / dust bunnies that like collecting in computers. Make sure to get the vent on the front directly behind the Dell logo. (between the silver plate and black frame)
A couple of questions about your machine.
Single quadcore hyperthreading processor, Xeon E5540 at 2.53 Ghz. 1MB L2 Cache, 8mb L3 Cache.
I shut down the machine and re-booted after dinner and it seems happier, but I'm not convinced problem is solved.
That link you gave me is to the 'office Tower/ apartment building' I was talking about. Wouldn't have known what to ask for so the part number and link is really really helpful. I went back and reviewed what you said earlier in the thread and it makes more sense now. Yes, I have the Part# T021F aluminum heat sink. Think I'm going to get the U016F on general principals; price is right.
If I put the 'Apartment Building' in, do I need any conductive goop or anything, do you know?
Will look for a good software utility to be able to see temperatures and operation of fans.
By the way, since this 'stupid' Bitcoin stuff seems to have impacted my life I went an bought a book and am giving it a quick read along with its related blockchain technology that is suppoedly going to be the next thing in fin-tech payment technolgies and encryptions. The book that is giving me some background came out in 2014 and was written by Brian Kelly. It's called, "The Bitcoin Big Bang Theory, How Alternative Currencies are about to Change the World."
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bitcoin-Big-Bang-by-Brian-Kelly-Hardcover-Book-English-/382135612948?epid=201598209&hash=item58f90eb614:g:lMMAAOSwt~RZdp4U
Yes, you will need to get some thermal paste. When you pull the old heatsink off, clean the paste from the top of your CPU with a paper towel + a little rubbing alcohol, or with wet wipes. The old paste will probably be caked and solidified, so you will need to scrub a bit. And clean it off of the new (used) heatsink when you get it. Depending on how you feel like doing it, you either put a little pile of compund in the middle of the CPU, or you spread a very thin layer over the entire top surface of the CPU (I prefer the spread method)
This would also be a good oportunity to purchase a new CPU.
Xeon X5675 : 6 core 12 thread 3.06Ghz (3.46Ghz boost) $49 with free shipping on ebay.
This would give you a very big performance boost for your CPU based rendering
When you changed the chips in your machine, were these like the ones you used ( yours appearing to be straight 5570) ?
Specifically I mean in the sense was it plug and play like the Ram memory (except for answering a few questions upon boot-up in F2 or whatever) or were there any changes in bios, etc? Or adverse effects on software owned (I don't know what they key in to but I think it may be the motherboard S/N rather than just the CPU and RAM.)
You realize I'm gradually coming around, step by step, research effort by research effort (is that even a term?), to what you did. Im actually thinking about this CPU - something like "since I have to clean the old one off, might as well as spend $50 for an upgrade and hopefully no cleaning."
I have not changes CPUs in mine yet. The X5570 is basicly just a faster clock speed version of your current processor.
The CPU is plug and play. Other than maybe letting you know that the CPU changed upon first boot, just go into the bios and make sure that the CPU is showing correctly, then exit saving changes.
And btw, I just shelled out the $140 to get a pair of X5680 CPUs for mine. (6core 12thread 3.33Ghz and 3.60 Boost)
Actually, what you show is better; not just the clock speed. Mine is only quadcore with hyperthreading (8 threads total). This is hex core, with hyperthreading meaning 12 threads, in addition to 3.06/2.53 = 21% increase in computational speed. I have to look at my machine first because i seem to remember somewhere coming up against something different in going above 8 hyperthreads. Can't remember what it is at the moment. But you've got me seriously thinking about pulling the trigger.
At the moment I'm taking a look at Art3D's hw monitor as well as something called SpeedFan, and maybe MSI afterburner, all free utilitities that track thermal operation temperatures of CPU, fans, etc, to see if I can get a handle as to what is going on with the fans.
MSI afterburner is for overclocking your video card. HW monitor will tell you everything you need to know about temps, fan speed.
If you buy one of those used CPU's you should still clean it with rubbing alcohol. Don't use a paper towel, use a clean cloth or a coffee filter.
The best thermal paste is Arctic Silver. I think it is about $6.00 from Newegg. You can find instructions for using it on youtube.
I tested HW monitor and Speedfan side by side.
Hw Monitor has the statistics including the fan, but I only see one fan who's speed remains constant. I'm guessing the others don't have sensors.
Speed Fan has a graph where you can see the history in real time of the items. It's window, however, seems to be a fixed size that is small.
My former Asus utility had the equivalent of both together and I miss that. Plus I could download and save the data.
Using these two programs, so far, it seems that my CPU cores individually are getting up around 58-59 degrees C on an occasional spike. No idea why this is happening. In one instance the heat-up occurred after I had turned on the machine but before I had anything running, other than whatever no-load background software the machine usually runs. I visually inspected the fans and they all seem running when I pull the cover off. T
The CPU temparature as a whole does not get that high. Overall things are running in the low to mid 40's. Room temperature is about 80 degrees F (27 degrees C), so I think the 40s is not too bad, though high 30s would be better. The GPU got to about 50 degrees C max, but stayed mostly in the mid 40s. Looks like the fans scream as the core temperatures rise in the 50s. The worst screaming, however, seems to come as they're driving temperatures down. Never had this before. The aluminum fins of the heat sink are clean.
I don't have any feedback about the termperatures or performance of the 4GB memory sticks.
Arctic Silver it is.