HD Add-ons What's the point?
I noticed Mei Linn 7's HD add on was released last night and that brings up a question and experience I had with HD add-ons a few months ago, and that is; whats the point?
I mean, when I look at the promos, it seems to me like one gets those results anyway. I did 2 side-by-side comparison renders of Mei Lin 6 a bit back, with and without the HD Add-on and there was almost no difference, if any, that I could see. Both had the fine detail; crows feet, wringles, pores, etc. I'm sure there is a point, but what is it? Maybe I was doing something wrong?
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Comments
Well the sculpted micro detail is probably the point.
I remember that the HD add-on for V6 also came with an extra set of skin textures.
If they included an extra hd skin with each HD add-on, I would have consider buying some of them.
Different strokes for different folks I guess. I always use the HD and can tell a marked difference in the detailing. Now things like hands, legs, and feet tend to look just blah to me without the HD.
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The texture artists often put in the details like wrinkles, handprints, etc... which is why you see the details. If there was no texture or if you just used an all over shader, you'd see a big difference. But the texture makers are so good, they make up for the lack of an HD model...
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Let me rephrase since your questioning what I believe.. It makes a big difference in my final renders AND the reception they get from other people. They may not be aware of the difference but they respond to them.
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Perhaps some side-by-side screenshots showing the difference (or lack of a difference) would help, maybe somebody else who has the same product could compare and see if it matches what they are expecting to see.
I've only had experience with Boris HD, which isn't really an add-on. But the HD is very obvious (and good) on the face with subdivision turned up. I have no idea about the add-ons. They seem quite expensive when you consider you could buy a whole new character with textures for the same price.
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Well, from my experience, when you add in HD details, you do get better results rendering skin that doesn't have lots of built-in bump-map-details. I use the Boris-HD morph, for example, to age up a character slightly. In addition, you will see better results when you render in larger sizes. In smaller images, the details get lost.
Also, the HD is actually catching shadows, which is something the bump-map doesn't as effective. So... the point is that they are useful, but only if you use them in closeups. Besond a certain distance, it doesn't really matter because the details are not visible.
I bought the Guy 7 HD add-on and the Brooke HD add-on. I really don't notice a difference on the Brooke HD add-on at the camera distance I render (also had trouble with DAZ Studio crashing that day all the time though - seems I can't load Brooke and 2 articles of Genesis 2 Female clothing on her without crashing DAZ Studio :-( I guess that means eventually I will buy more Genesis 3 Female clothing like the Day at the Office clothing pack). For the Guy 7 HD add-on I let a render last night, it seems to have added many more morphs that I had before which is welcome and visually alot more HD details that are nicely comically overdefined like a superhero would be. Although they really aren't 'HD' in a realistic sense but toon comic exaggerations. I am happy with the HD add-on I've bought so far after considering them unneeded.
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Also remember that you need to increase your character's Render SubD Level (Minimuim) in the Parameters pane to 3 to get the best results from the HD morphs. At lower values the full HD details will not be rendered.
Kinda off topic but I soooo wish they would bring the elite textures back for Genesis 3!
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The Elite textures were great and I think I have nearly all of them, but out of interest, what is it about them, do you think, that is lacking in today's textures?
In respect to the topic, I consider HD morphs to be essential to my work now. However, I can understand, with standard female characters particularly, that the benefits may appear to be slim. For males and, of course, creatures/monsters, as well as older characters with wrinkles, the benefits are much more obvious. They matter increasingly as the base poly count of DAZ figures decreases, to the extent now with G3 that I think they have become an indispensable part of character creation (which is why it concerns me that the technology to create HD morphs is being kept confidential).
I'm not an expert in the DAZ / Poser / Rendo / RuntimeDNA world of textures but as far as i'm concerned the Eddie texture that came with the Guy 7 HD add-on and the Brooke HD textures are 'elite'.
Just came to this topic among search results for something (which I haven't been able to find). But while I'm here ...
To the original poster:
I think that the reason you are seeing the same detail from a character like Mei Lin 6 and Mei Lin 6 HD whereas the promos of the HD product show the non-HD version smooth and without the detail is something I noticed and did some experiments on. It's the normal maps. Not the bump maps - they have other details on; it is specifically the normal maps that have the same details on as the HD add-on morphs.
If you load any of the figure actors - like Mei Lin 6 which loads the figure morphed and textured - it loads with the normal maps applied. If you load the HD version that loads the figure with the HD morphs and textures applied, it loads WITHOUT the normal maps, because the HD morph produces the same details as the normal maps (and in fact DAZ have released updates for several of the HD add-ons specifically to change the HD figure so they loaded without the normal maps, where the original release had the HD figure load with the normal maps on as well as the HD morph by mistake). So your renders and the promos for the base figures look to have all the details of the HD version because the normal maps are supplying that detail. In the HD add-on promos with the side-by-sides of the untextured, grey figure with and wiithout the HD morphs applied, the 'without HD' version doesn't have the normal maps applied so looks smooth (and quite different to the base figure's own promos where the normal maps were on). If you take that grey, non-HD figure shape and just apply only the normal maps (each of the main -6 and -7 figures has a 'normal maps on 'and 'normal maps off' preset in that figure's material folder, which only puts the normla maps on or off and doesn't change anything else, so you can use them on an untextured grey Genesis 2 or 3), you will find it now looks just like the HD morphed version; if you re-did the promo side-by-sides of grey figure, one with no HD morph but the normal maps, and the other (as in the actual promos) with HD morph and no normal maps, you will be hard pressed to tell the difference. Certainly the tests I did for a couple of the HD add-ons, with an otherwise untextured grey figure, rendering close in, once with the HD morph on, then again with the HD off but the normal maps on, the fine detail was the same in each case and there wasn't a pixel different in the HD-morph-Vs-normal map pairs of test renders.
So, yes, in a way it is valid to ask what's the point of the HD morphs when you can just use the normal maps (which also use much less computer resources and have little affect on rendering speed as compared with the HD morphs).
Two points:
1 You can use e.g. the Mei Lin 7 or Gia 6 or Victoria 7 or whatever normal maps with other character textures for that UV, and instead of any normal maps that came with that character texture set (if any - many PA chaaracter texture sets don't have normal maps anyway, and if they come with their own good set of micro-detail normal maps you don't need the HD morph).
2 The apparent advantage of the HD morphs over the normla maps is that theHD morphs are UV independent. So. e;g; you can use the Gia 7 HD add-on or Eva 7 HD add-on to add some definition and 'abs' with a character set that uses the V7 morph as the base for its shape and the Genesis 3 Female Base UVs for its textures. The various normal maps are each, as they come, only for the UV set of the figure thay came with - so the Gia 7 normal maps are specific to the Gia 7 UVs and texture sets which use those UVs. Except ... actually DS comes with the wonderful Map Transfer tool built in, and it actually takes less than a minute to get DS to take e.g. the Gia 7 normal maps and produce a version of them changed to the Genesis 3 Female Base UVs. And you only have to do each conversion once. So ... the majority of PA Genesis 3 textures use the Genesis 3 Female UVs, so if you get the Map Transfer tool to make conversions to those UVs of the Gia 7 normal maps, Olympia 7 normal maps, Mei Lin 7 normal maps etc, then you can get virtually the same detail effects with those normal maps with any of the Genesis 3 Female Base UV texture sets as using those HD add-ons. Just make sure to crank the baking quality setting in the Map Transfer to the max ... it still only takes seconds to convert the normal maps to another UV, and testing - rendering up close on a grey, untextured shape - the original normal maps using their native UV against the Map Transfer converted normal maps using the UV converted to, I again can't find a pixel difference.
So, using the Map Transfer tool within DS to convert the assorted -6 and -7 figure normal maps to other UVs (for the -6 figures, most PA texture sets are Base Female or Victoria 6 UV; for the --7 figures almost all PA texture sets are Base female UV; so those are the UVs to convert the other UV normal maps to), all the normal maps actually ARE - in effect - UV independent, and can be used with other characters just like the HD add-ons to add in the same detail as the HD add-on morphs.
Generally speaking I like the appeal of the HD add-on's and they definitely have their place. What I don't like is the lack of consistency in extra detail each HD add-on provides.
Given that the whole point of them is realism, the female add-ons should have just as much detail with pores etc as the male add-ons, and could be dialled down for a more subtle look if needed.
But even with the male add-ons, there's a real difference in the details. Just look at Gianni 7 and Leo 7. Lee 7 apparently even has a separate vein dial!
Even in areas like the lips which should have the most amount of detail, many of the HD add-on's have very little difference (according to promos) to their SD counterparts, just look at Kalea 7.
To make these worth the high price tag, in my opinion: