Clarification About Shaders vs. Shader Presets
algovincian
Posts: 2,636
My understanding is that shader presets change parameter values with matching names for selected material zones in the Surfaces Pane (without caring about mat zone names), while shaders replace the actual shaders, and therefor change the parameters that get listed in the Surfaces Pane. Am I thinking about this wrong?
Consistent inconsistency over the years has caused confusion. For example, the Iray Uber Base is under Shader Presets/Iray/Daz Uber, but applying it replaces the shader as opposed to changing parameter values with matching names.
- Greg
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A shader is simply a computer program to calculate how light and color are displayed when rendering. In Daz Studio, shaders such as the Iray Uber shader or the PBR Skin shader are different types of pre-determined setups which have settings you can use to control how light is absorbed, reflected or transmitted through materials/surfaces to mimic what is physically happening in real-life.
Shader presets are files which are created to manipulate specific settings on any surface of a specific shader. You need to have the object/node and surface selected and the proper shader already applied to your surface to allow the shader preset to manipulate the shader's values and texture images.
Hope that helps.
Shader/Material presets can, and usually do, also specify which shader to use.
Yeah, I'm aware what a shader actually is in general in 3D. The post was more about how shaders vs shader presets are talked about in these forums, described in product descriptions, organized in the Content Librarty of DS, etc. Thanks for taking the time to talk about it, though, as it seems (IMHO) there is still confusion here.
- Greg
So, out of curiosity, what is the point of having "Shaders"? What does a "Shader" do that a "Shader Preset" does not?
- Greg
The shader defines the actual computing logic and what parameters it can use for those computations. A preset will apply a shader to some surface and set specific values to the parameters of that shader.
What you have in your content library as "Iray Uber Base" is actually a shader preset which applies the "Iray Uber" shader with default values for all parameters. The actual shader is part of Daz Studio application, like plugins.
Most of the time when you see a product or person refering to "shader" they actually mean a shader preset.
Most "shaders" packs in the store are actually packs of shader presets which rely on one of the base shaders. A content creator will typically only create an actual new shader when they need a new way to compute the surface shading that could not be achieved with one of the existing shaders.
For example, OOT created their custom shader to do hair blending, and they include the shader and a bunch of preset for it with their hair products.
Another example of an actual shader would be Oso Janus shader: there's no way to have different material settings on each side of a surface with the regular Iray base shader, so the PA created a new shader which enables that. The product contains the actual shader, plus a bunch of presets using that shader with various parameters.
If you do not want that Iray Uber Base replace the objects shader values, press Control key
and then click on Iray Uber Base, then choose Ignore.
I use it that way quite often when converting 3Delight shader to the iray ones.
You probably know about that, but I mention this for anybody else reading these posts.
@Leana - I assume you are talking to me when you say "you", so I repeat what I already said 2 posts up:
I'm aware what a shader actually is in general in 3D. The post was more about how shaders vs shader presets are talked about in these forums, described in product descriptions, organized in the Content Library of DS, etc.
The bolded part of your reply seems to imply that you agree with me that there are issues with how shaders vs shader presets are talked about in these forums, described in product descriptions, organized in the Content Library of DS, etc.
- Greg
Yes, I agree with you that people (and even PAs) often don't use the right term and talk about "shader" when they should say "shader preset".
I think it's just a lazy way of talking, sadly - and one I've fallen into several times as well. For instance, many people refer to "Daz Studio" as just "Daz" which is a big no-no according to the Daz3D powers that be. If we're using lazy terminology they'd rather us use the word "Studio" rather than "Daz" to help differentiate the platform from the company. I agree that everyone would benefit from people being more precise in their way of speaking as to minimize unnecessary confusion. It's a particular issue for newer users or for those who may not realize there is a difference between a Shader and a Shader Preset (as well as other lazy ways of speaking that can muddy the waters and create confusion). We could all benefit from being a bit more careful with the terminology we use.
Edit to add: I agree that it doesn't help that products are allowed in the store with the word "Shaders" in the product name or product description, when they are only Shader Presets. It would benefit everyone involved if the Daz3D team would enforce a more precise way of labeling products so as to not cause further confusion.
It's one of the strange things about how we talk and use terms. Another thing is how some people say "ATM Machine" when the ATM means Automatic Teller Machine. Or PIN number. When PIN means Personal Identification Number. Ironically these are examples where we say more informtion than what's needed but...yeah this human tendancy to do this really causes confusion as times.
Guilty as charged!
PIN, when pronounced, is at least defensible in that "pin" has other unrelated meanings, so the added clarification could be useful. ATM stands for nothing else, so "ATM" could only ever refer to a machine, making the reduplication wholly unnecessary.
Why? if you understand the difference why not use the correct term, or is it because PAs don't actually understand what they are producing and selling.
It's like Diva said - when I see a preset that say shader, its a concise way of labeling it a shader preset, it's applying a predefined shader, not editing an existing shader to add more properties or such, to edit a shader without the preset in the DAZ Studio shader editor to add properities, delete properties, or create a brand new shader altogether is what I would call a shader operation. They're very similar but one you are using someone else's predefined work and the other your are creating your own unique work.
Is the confusion over the label that is on the icon for preset? They are labelled "shader" or "material" or "pose", etc. But all are presets which are basically a set of (json) script commands to change parameters on a node, whether that is a figure or surface. I think the label is just a short form to distinguish between types.
Interestingly, I find the confusion comes sometimes in the naming of things. For example "PBR Skin Shader" and "Iray Uber Shader" are different types of shaders, but the irony is that both are actuallyl PBR shaders as they are both Physically Based Render shaders which are using math to mimic the path of light. People often get confused by the difference between these shaders, which are basically just a different set of parameters to modify properties differently.
Richard is right that presets can also change the shader type. PAs or customers should use the term shader presets when referring to a product with presets built in. It is probably just lazy speaking which is a common occurance when slang gets introduced in any language. PAs are people too and not everyone is at the same level of understanding. We are all learning at different levels, which is what this community is about (learning 3D). There always has to be some forgiveness for people's differences in knowledge and understanding. However, it can make is confusing for the customer, so education is important too.