Displacement Strength Image

KimberSue

Hi, In the surface section what type of image do you put in the Displacement Strength? For example I know the Bump Strength image after it renders can get the render image depth but I can't figure out the Displacement Strength map image.

Thanks

SimonJM

Same sort of image as Bump. The main difference is that Displacemnt will actually modify the mesh/geometry at render-time.

Jaderail

A Bump Map is just rendered on to the parts close to the camera the sides and edges are still flat. If you put a Bump Map in the displacement channel it really moves the surface up and down. Then the edges and sides also have texture.

Just extra info.

Chohole

This was a demo image I made of an untestured item to show the displacement effect. Hopefully you can see that the gathers at the waist are actually there.

Richard Haseltine

Jaderail said:

A Bump Map is just rendered on to the parts close to the camera the sides and edges are still flat. If you put a Bump Map in the displacement channel it really moves the surface up and down. Then the edges and sides also have texture.

Just extra info.

That's not quite right. A bump map changes the "facing" of the surface, so that it catches more or less light than its actual placement would lead it to. It doesn't change the mesh at all, but it does change the shading and so gives the illusion of relief. Displacement does, as noted, change the mesh - it moves it along its normal, the line at right-angles to the surface, by the proportion of the distance setting determined by the shade of the map.

As to the original question, the most common difference between bump and displacement maps is their bit-depth; displacement maps tend to be 16 bit greyscale, as - if the displacement is large enough to be really noticeable - a regular 8-bit greyscale image can easily give noticeable stair-casing (like a relief map made of pieces of cardboard stacked together) and as a result displacement maps tend to be in Tiff format rather than jpg.

KimberSue

Thanks for all the replies, the really help.

LaughingVulcan

Got a question:
How do we set up the displacement map to affect ONLY a certain part of the mesh?

For example:
I'm working on a Gynoid, (based on Genesis I Aiko 5), who has a series of raised, hexagonal 'sensors' on her cranium.
(This texture is going on the 'Head Face' texture, BTW.)

I'm unsure how to create the map in FreeHand, (and what Background color to use) so that the displacement map ONLY affects the upper cranium...

As it stands at the moment, I can apply my temp 'crystal' displacement map, but if I go too high, she renders out looking like a boxer with a HEAVILY swollen face.

Is there a specific FORMAT to save in? Specific background color that tells DAZ, 'Ignore this area.'?

I did a less extreme displacement, as seen below, but you can already see the 'thickening effect' in the eye areas.

Thoughts? Am I missing something? If SO, WHAT?! :shut:

Thanks, all.

Be well.

Greg

Richard Haseltine

With the default values use mod grey (128, 128, 128 or 127,127,127 ) for areas you wish to be left alone.

SpottedKitty

LaughingVulcan said:

Is there a specific FORMAT to save in? Specific background color that tells DAZ, 'Ignore this area.'?

That's not quite how it works; there is no "ignore" colour. Since the map varies from "full negative value" at black, and "full positive value" at white, you must use mid grey as the zero value. And if you're using a lossy compressed format such as .jpg make sure you must not over-compress — this will create a stipple pattern in what should be a solid smooth colour, making everything subtly lumpy.

One other small gotcha. Since these maps are supposed to be entirely grey, saving them as a colour image can leave a bit of colour cast in the saved file. It isn't actually wrong, but it might let slight inaccuracies creep into the finished render. When you save the map after setting it up, look for the "greyscale" option in the save dialog. This has the minor benefit of producing a smaller file, because it doesn't need to have colour data in it.

LaughingVulcan

Richard Haseltine said:

With the default values use mod grey (128, 128, 128 or 127,127,127 ) for areas you wish to be left alone.

Cool. I'll give it a go tonight, and see if that helps her... :)

Thank you, Mr. Haseltine. :)

LaughingVulcan

SpottedKitty said:

That's not quite how it works; there is no "ignore" colour. Since the map varies from "full negative value" at black, and "full positive value" at white, you must use mid grey as the zero value. And if you're using a lossy compressed format such as .jpg make sure you must not over-compress — this will create a stipple pattern in what should be a solid smooth colour, making everything subtly lumpy.

Ah. THAT'S another bugaboo I've noticed on 'Hecate'...It looks like the 'rust-bubbling-under-paint' look. I'll have to check my export settings. :)

One other small gotcha. Since these maps are supposed to be entirely grey, saving them as a colour image can leave a bit of colour cast in the saved file. It isn't actually wrong, but it might let slight inaccuracies creep into the finished render. When you save the map after setting it up, look for the "greyscale" option in the save dialog. This has the minor benefit of producing a smaller file, because it doesn't need to have colour data in it.

Not sure if Freehand allows for Greyscale Export, but I'll check. Was wondering about this for the bump maps I've been using, too.

I'll give that a go.

Worst case, I can greyscale it in Photoshop.

Thanks, Spotted Kitty! :)

Greg

Jaderail

Maybe this Post will help you some http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/31578/P60/#477032 The NU contest is on texturing this month.

SpottedKitty

LaughingVulcan said:

Ah. THAT'S another bugaboo I've noticed on 'Hecate'...It looks like the 'rust-bubbling-under-paint' look. I'll have to check my export settings. :)

Yes, that's exactly right. It's simply a matter of using the right tool — remember, the .jpg format was designed to massively compress scanned photographs so you could fit lots of them onto a CD. Anything much over the minimum compression setting produces blurring and lots of tiny imperfections in the image that the eye can't really see in a photo of a real object. Textures, and especially bump/displacement maps, are much more sensitive to this. Use a non-lossy file format like .png or (if you can spare the space for the larger files) .tiff for displacement.

(Incidentally, this is also why I usually recommend saving a render as .tiff and never convert to .jpg until after you're sure you've done every bit of postwork on the final image.)

ben98120000

Its .tif (one f), not .tiff. AFAIK, DS doesnt read .tiff extension.

Edit:
Scratch that last remark, I know different now. :-) It reads .tiff as well.

LaughingVulcan

SpottedKitty said:

Yes, that's exactly right. It's simply a matter of using the right tool — remember, the .jpg format was designed to massively compress scanned photographs so you could fit lots of them onto a CD. Anything much over the minimum compression setting produces blurring and lots of tiny imperfections in the image that the eye can't really see in a photo of a real object. Textures, and especially bump/displacement maps, are much more sensitive to this. Use a non-lossy file format like .png or (if you can spare the space for the larger files) .tiff for displacement.

(Incidentally, this is also why I usually recommend saving a render as .tiff and never convert to .jpg until after you're sure you've done every bit of postwork on the final image.)

Good points. Didn't think of it that way regarding .jpg files, but makes sense. :)

______________

I had an 'Ah-HAAA" moment! :)

I've figured out how to protect the parts of the mesh you DON'T want displaced:

1. Add the displacement map in the 'Displacement Strength' picture 'slot' for the surface (under the 'Surfaces' tab)
2. Create a black & white mask based off your Displacement map in a photo-imaging program.
3. Go to the 'Grey Arrow' on the picture slot, and the pulldown should give you a few options...one of which is 'layered Image Editor'. Select that.
4. In the L.I.E. panel, hit 'Zoom to fit' so you can see the WHOLE displacement image, then go click the plus sign under the 'layers' section.
5. Select 'Add Mask'.
6. Go down to 'Resource'...'Browse'...find your black & white mask, and select it.
7. Hit 'Accept' and close the panel.

When you do an area render or full render, Studio should NOW give you your displacement ONLY in the desired affected areas. :D

Variations of this should work equally well in the other image docks...(for diffuse, reflection, glossiness, ambient, etc.)

"I LOVE it when a plan comes together!" Hannibal, The A-Team

WAHHHOOOOO!!! :D

Jaderail

Yes that will work but now you have a LIE preset and not a basic Displacement map. Nothing wrong with that, I love LIE for the features it offers. I was just thinking you were wanting a standard Dis Map.

SpottedKitty

LaughingVulcan said:

When you do an area render or full render, Studio should NOW give you your displacement ONLY in the desired affected areas. :D

Have you tried this yet? It's a neat idea, but I'm... a bit doubtful that it would work. Remember, D|S understands only the mid-grey colour to be "zero" — what colour is "masked transparent"? This technique does work in other material parameters, I've bought a few goodies from the store that rely on it, but I'm not sure if it would work in bump or displacement unless the mid-grey is already in the masked parts of the underlying map. Which sort of defeats the purpose of using a mask in the first place.

Jaderail

I believe, not 100% sure, but think, a Mask is seen by DAZ Studio as Default zero on a texture. This is something I will test very soon.

LaughingVulcan

Jaderail said:

Yes that will work but now you have a LIE preset and not a basic Displacement map. Nothing wrong with that, I love LIE for the features it offers. I was just thinking you were wanting a standard Dis Map.

If I COULD get the basic Displacement Map to work in this case, I'd go for it...would make things simpler. (I'm a believer in the old K.I.S.S saying...)

But until I master Studio well enough to get to that point (I'm getting there, knowledgewise, but I'm still very much a n00b Studio user), I'll see what I can do with the LIE in this case...

And once I get their 'uniforms' adjusted for my Genesis (and they're not nudie with all their...circuits...hangin' out... :D), I'll put up renders... :)

Jaderail

All I was saying was my post was dealing only with a standard displacement map, not a masked LIE overlay. But here is how to figure out the Basic map on your own. Open with your file browser the Content folder you have, goto Runtime>Textures> Any Item you know has a displacement texture. Open the disp or bmp map in any 2D art program. Do a Pick color on the FILL color, THAT is the BASE skin surface color used in DAZ Studio if you used a DAZ Studio texture like M5 or V5 bump or displacement file from a texture folder. Once you look at a few Pro made ones it should start to be clear to you how they are done.

Richard Haseltine

What are your displacement settings - not just the map but the Minimum and Maximum values and the strength.

LaughingVulcan

SpottedKitty said:

Have you tried this yet? It's a neat idea, but I'm... a bit doubtful that it would work. Remember, D|S understands only the mid-grey colour to be "zero" — what colour is "masked transparent"? This technique does work in other material parameters, I've bought a few goodies from the store that rely on it, but I'm not sure if it would work in bump or displacement unless the mid-grey is already in the masked parts of the underlying map. Which sort of defeats the purpose of using a mask in the first place.

I was experimenting tonight.

It's not working as I thought a few days ago.

I wish we could get Dan Ablan to do an 'Inside DAZ Studio 4.6+' book...either THAT, or convince DAZ to give us a well-written PDF manual on how things work with short tutes on important parts of the program...like Bump maps and Displacement...and if they are interdependant or not.

I got the head crystals to emerge, but wound up using a black-backed 'mask' image in the Displacement image slot, and setting Disp. strength at 2.5%, Min Disp. at 2.00 and Max at 18.00...

(I still feel like a confused, blindfolded skeet shooter trying to hit the skeets... :( :) I know it works at the moment, but not WHY...THAT'S the MOST irritating thing! >:( )
I stilll have MUCH to learn about this program. :)
(Thanks for the input/thoughts /feedback, by the way, all. It is VERY much appreciated. :D )

Jaderail

Here is a little thing I whipped up for you. I hope it is some help.

1. Here is my favorite set that uses Displacement. The Aged for M4 was the best set until Genesis and the Zev0 overlays came out.

2. Here are the Standard Displacement settings as done by the Creator of the set. Notice that Min is set to negative.

3. Here is a SMALL part of one of the Displacement maps loaded into one of my 2D art programs and the FLAT flood fill color picked.

4. And here is what the Displacement map does to M4's face on the Character that comes with the set.

None of this used LIE. I still suggest you open a few Displacement maps in a Art program and look at them.

LaughingVulcan

Jaderail said:

Here is a little thing I whipped up for you. I hope it is some help.

1. Here is my favorite set that uses Displacement. The Aged for M4 was the best set until Genesis and the Zev0 overlays came out.

2. Here are the Standard Displacement settings as done by the Creator of the set. Notice that Min is set to negative.

3. Here is a SMALL part of one of the Displacement maps loaded into one of my 2D art programs and the FLAT flood fill color picked.

4. And here is what the Displacement map does to M4's face on the Character that comes with the set.

None of this used LIE. I still suggest you open a few Displacement maps in a Art program and look at them.

Yeah, this helps. Thanks! :)

I checked the one displacement set I have...the gray varied: 207/207/207, 104/104/104, etc., but I see what you mean.

I didn't redo the 'crystal map' with the grey background, but I input the settings shown for your set...they worked!
(Disp Strength - 100, Min: -0.10, Max: 0.10)

When I get a quiet hour Saturday, I'll create a grey version and see how the renders respond to it.
(That's a relief...If I can do it with a simple map in the image slot, instead of mucking around with the LIE, all the better. Simple's good! :D )

Jaderail

Happy to Help. And remember, it took me from my join date till now to learn all this stuff. LOL, learn this stuff... That's so not true, I'm still learning new stuff every day. So just keep asking questions on things you need more info on, that's what I did.

EDIT: That looks GOOD by the way. Well done.

SpottedKitty

Ooo, shiny! :coolsmile:

LaughingVulcan

Jaderail said:

Happy to Help. And remember, it took me from my join date till now to learn all this stuff. LOL, learn this stuff... That's so not true, I'm still learning new stuff every day. So just keep asking questions on things you need more info on, that's what I did.

EDIT: That looks GOOD by the way. Well done.

Will do. I ask a LOT of questions at work, so this will be familiar ground! :-)

Thanks, Jaderail. I'm on a robot girl/gynoid kick now...I got inspired by Flamekin2 of DeviantArt, who did a short robot series with 3D Custom Girl...I wanted to fiddle with Poser and then Studio to see If I could come close to the character's designs...

THEN I got hooked 'evolving' the robot design...and am using it to push what I can do in Studio and Lightwave. (I'm using Genesis I & BelBel/ChibiBel)

I've been assimilated and am enjoying every minute of it! :wow:

What I DO love is I can do robot maps for Aiko 5, then scrub a slider, and I have a differently shaped robot looking at me!
(Just wish that Yamato can translate BelBel to the Genesis body...THAT could be fun! :) )

LaughingVulcan

SpottedKitty said:

Ooo, shiny! :coolsmile:

She is.

Here she is with the Vindicator Suit:

Jaderail

Oh, I'm loving this. The only Off thing I might see is the lips. To me they need a more metal type shader. I love the detail but to me they look way to organic.