How to add a second Normal Map to a Shader

Karen

Hello,

maybe someone can help me to restore my mental health because this is driving me crazy for days.

I would like to add a second Normal Map to a surface shader, but I feel completely lost in Shader Mixer.

I managed to add a slot (don't know the right term) for another Normal Map and it takes an image, but it does not show up when rendered. Also I have no clue how to make it tilable or add a slider for strength.

Layered Image Editor is not an option, because it is not able to tile the images independently of each other.

Richard Haseltine

You would need to combine the output of the two normal bricks (assuming you are feeding the map into a normal brick) before output, or to combine the two maps before feeding in to the nomal brick. Is this Iray or 3Delight? I have fiddled with this kind of thing in 3delight but not been brave enough to try it in Iray.

Tiling is a matter of taking the texture coordinates and adjusting them before feeding them to the image brick. In 3Delight those are the S and T values (which derive from the U and V values), but that assumes the map is itself tilable.

Karen

It is Iray and I feel like I am trying to find a door in a pitch dark room

I even copied the brick and it does not work.

Maybe someone can tell, how to replace the bump map "thing" with a second normal.

rosseliani

Not sure about what you want to do, but I've never seen two Normal Maps in a Surface Settings (see attached image wich isn't a screenshot but a combination) , maybe I'm wrong?

Try to combine your Normal Maps in an image editor, or (if possible) create a new surface for the second Normal Map to be applied.

 

Karen

Exactly what you show in your picture. I would like to avoid bump map, because Normal Maps are more detailed and I found that a combination of bump and normal ends up in strange behaviour somehow (the bump map "erases" the normal map).

For example: I have a dress and want to add wrinkles and seams with a normal map on the UV map. And then some cloth pattern with a tilable image on top. I know, that I could add the pattern on the UV, too, but a tilable texture is way more detailed and versatile.

rosseliani

UV files are not images. I think what you call "UV" is just a template, called "UV layout".

UV layout is an image that helps to create your Diffuse, bump, opacity, etc maps.

You can't have a "not tiled Map" and a "tilable Map" in the same Surface parameters set. Tiling will apply to the whole set.

 

 

Karen

I know how to use UV maps and what they are. So you don't think, it is possible to replace the bump map property with a normal map or to combine two normal maps (s. your picture)

I found this thread: https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/332146/multiple-bump-maps

Jonny Ray says: (...) use the Shader Mixer to build a customized shader which would accept two maps and some sort of a blending slider. Use the slider as a mulplier against the two maps before adding them together, then feed the results of that into the bump channel.

rosseliani

The Shader Mixer is something I never used. Better ask Jonny Ray himself ( build a customized shader which would accept two maps and some sort of a blending slider).

I give up, hope you find better answers from others.

Regards,

Rosseliani

Karen

Thanks. I know, my question is pretty complex. I am completely lost when it comes to Shader Mixer . Something like the product "Normal Map Fusion" but for clothes (and the possibility to tile the maps) would be great *sigh*

WendyLuvsCatz

Karen said:

 

Layered Image Editor is not an option, because it is not able to tile the images independently of each other.

you could tile them how you wish in an external image editor then use LIE 

felis

What I occasionally have done is to use a tiled texture in bump, and then a non-tiled texture in normal.

Karen

felis said:

What I occasionally have done is to use a tiled texture in bump, and then a non-tiled texture in normal.

This is what I do, and it is okay. But I have the strange feeling, that a bump map is a bit meh compared to a nice, crisp normal.

Karen

WendyLuvsCatz said:

Karen said:

 

Layered Image Editor is not an option, because it is not able to tile the images independently of each other.

you could tile them how you wish in an external image editor then use LIE 

I guess that will be the best/easiest solution. Although not perfect and my grumpy inner nerd gives me a "a snarling smile" 

 

felis

Karen said:

felis said:

What I occasionally have done is to use a tiled texture in bump, and then a non-tiled texture in normal.

This is what I do, and it is okay. But I have the strange feeling, that a bump map is a bit meh compared to a nice, crisp normal.

A normal map is superior to a bump map, as it not only "moves" the point in the height direction, but also sideways. But in order to utilize that, the material shall require that. And for a tiled texture I don't think people will notice the (potential) difference.

And combining normal maps, requires that you can do vector maths, something I hardly think you can do in DS even in shader mixer.

And messing around in shader mixer is just not me, with the current level (lack) of documentation.

Richard Haseltine

felis said:

Karen said:

felis said:

What I occasionally have done is to use a tiled texture in bump, and then a non-tiled texture in normal.

This is what I do, and it is okay. But I have the strange feeling, that a bump map is a bit meh compared to a nice, crisp normal.

A normal map is superior to a bump map, as it not only "moves" the point in the height direction, but also sideways. But in order to utilize that, the material shall require that. And for a tiled texture I don't think people will notice the (potential) difference.

And combining normal maps, requires that you can do vector maths, something I hardly think you can do in DS even in shader mixer.

And messing around in shader mixer is just not me, with the current level (lack) of documentation.

Neither a normal nor a bump map moves anything. Bumps are turned into normals, based on the height they assign to the surface - a normal is read as a unti vector (a line, one unit long, pointing in a  direction) and defines the diection in which the surface should be treated as facing for the purposes of calculating its illumination.

Gordig

rosseliani said:

Not sure about what you want to do, but I've never seen two Normal Maps in a Surface Settings (see attached image wich isn't a screenshot but a combination) , maybe I'm wrong?

PBRSkin uses a regular full-face normal map and a tiled detail normal map.

WendyLuvsCatz

I have used 2 normal maps in Carrara with a multiply operator

I just cannot do it so easily in DAZ 

lilweep

Sorry cant be bothered reading this whole thread, but 1 possibility is to just use PBR Skin shader, as you can have main normal map and then normal map plugged into Details.

Karen

Thanks a lot for all your suggestions.I will play a bit with the PBR Skinshader. Maybe I a accomplish a "Franken-Shader" Or I a extract the Detail brick somehow.

rosseliani

Gordig said:

rosseliani said:

Not sure about what you want to do, but I've never seen two Normal Maps in a Surface Settings (see attached image wich isn't a screenshot but a combination) , maybe I'm wrong?

PBRSkin uses a regular full-face normal map and a tiled detail normal map.

Very interesting, thank you for this info!