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Genesis 9

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  • PixelSploitingPixelSploiting Posts: 898

    One can by accident disable corrective morphs when resetting figure pose (zero figure pose does it). Knees and elbows are always bad, though. G8 looked better with only basic correctives because it had joints with enough loops in right places.

  • xyer0xyer0 Posts: 6,030

    PixelSploiting said:

    By the way... I'll see your weird quad and I raise you even better elbows:

     The main culprit for G9, I think, is more uniform quad-based topology. Which I don't think was justified. Main differences between G8M and G8F geometries were in chest and buttocks. Not in arms and legs.

    That makes me sad. The shoulders and elbows are non-human. What I meant to say was, She looks great! 

  • Gator_2236745Gator_2236745 Posts: 1,312

    Perhaps Daz can change it's position on the SubD morphs?  Some of the images here illustrate why we need it.  With the uniform quad mesh at the resolution it's at, there's nothing we can do about the bends for our artwork.  We're reliant upon a PA to produce a product that we'll probably wait a year or so for (not faulting the PA, I know this sort of thing takes time, and it's not the only project they're working on).

  • bluejauntebluejaunte Posts: 1,922

    xyer0 said:

    bluejaunte said:

    xyer0 said:

    Quite a quad. Never seen anything like this.

    Z Spotlight Goddess Shape and Pose Mega Set for Genesis 9 by: Zeddicuss, 3D Models by Daz 3D

    Not necessarily a G9 issue though, simply a lack JCMs for whatever morphs were used here. I had a bulge like that in my character and QA made me fix it with a JCM.

    The morphs used were Daz Originals Genesis 9 Starter Essentials. If even those don't have adequate JCMs (CBSs), then OK whatever.

    {Are you in the market for another Noemie? I hope so.}

    If that bulge comes from those morphs alone then that would be something to criticize those morphs for. Could be they also sculpted on top though? I don't know. I'm not trying to defend anything, just saying if you put the base G9 in that pose you won't see that bulge. So I don't think it's fair to claim that this particular issue is a result of G9.

    There can be only one Noemi, but of course I hope many others will follow smiley

  • WonderlandWonderland Posts: 7,027

    This launch seems very different from previous ones. When G8 came out we never saw new G7s being released but we are still getting new G8s. I think it's telling too that even top PAs, let alone DAZ itself, seem to be struggling to make G9 look decent. I thought the whole point of G9 was that it was supposed to be able to turn into anything, even animals. But instead we have a separate undeveloped horse, humans with cartoon-like bodies marketed with the usual lingerie or fantasy/sci-fi' stuff and the PAs who made G8 turn into anything (like a hedgehog!) don't seem to be doing that with G9. I can't help but believe that G9 is not meant for us, the traditional market and might have something to do with it maybe being more compatible with other software, better for Web3 avatars or NFTs or something. 

  • takezo_3001takezo_3001 Posts: 1,997

    xyer0 said:

    Victoria 8 was released 2017 JUN 15. K.H.Image V8 Bends was released 2018 OCT 11. Almost 16 months. G8F Bends came out over a year later.

    I imagine that it takes that long to complete them, the work involved is herculean that's why I respect that PA so much, but yeah, they have their work cut out for them as G9 lacks any anatomical landmark info such as the pecs/delts etc, so that means that you're gonna have to be up on your anatomy, which they are, thankfully!

    Now comes the long wait.

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 18,293

    von Hobo said:

    I did a comparison as best I could for G8 vs G9 in just one pose with the base characters. (G8 on left, G9 on right)

    I used the G8M base, and the G9 base with the masculine skin and shape, and tried to match the pose as best as I could.

    I honestly cannot decide on which I like better. Except the G9 face does look more natural to me, and I'm thinking DAZ did a good job on the G9 face to make it more believable and less like the mannequin look of previous gens. However I can't decide if the G9 masculine shape really gives it a "male" appearance. It doesn't quite fit into the male or female realm completely? Perhaps the custom figures for G9 move that boundary.

    I was expecting to see vast improvements in G9... but if I cannot decide which I like better, then maybe I will stick mostly to G8 which I've invested thousands of dollars in, because I just can't afford this anymore. surprise

    They both look masculine, just very young, like a teenager. I so far have only bought Victoria 9, Michael 9, & the DAZ Originals head, body, & expressions base morphs.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 102,379

    bluejaunte said:

    xyer0 said:

    bluejaunte said:

    xyer0 said:

    Quite a quad. Never seen anything like this.

    Z Spotlight Goddess Shape and Pose Mega Set for Genesis 9 by: Zeddicuss, 3D Models by Daz 3D

    Not necessarily a G9 issue though, simply a lack JCMs for whatever morphs were used here. I had a bulge like that in my character and QA made me fix it with a JCM.

    The morphs used were Daz Originals Genesis 9 Starter Essentials. If even those don't have adequate JCMs (CBSs), then OK whatever.

    {Are you in the market for another Noemie? I hope so.}

    If that bulge comes from those morphs alone then that would be something to criticize those morphs for. Could be they also sculpted on top though? I don't know. I'm not trying to defend anything, just saying if you put the base G9 in that pose you won't see that bulge. So I don't think it's fair to claim that this particular issue is a result of G9.

    There can be only one Noemi, but of course I hope many others will follow smiley

    The product does contain a single .dsf proeprty file according to the read me, so it could be a custom morph or a controller - with the only required product being starter esentials (for the base figure - listing this is new) I woudl suspect custom morph, and there is no sign of any JCMs if so.

  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 5,882
    edited February 2023

    richardandtracy said:

    xyer0 said:

    Quite a quad. Never seen anything like this.

    Z Spotlight Goddess Shape and Pose Mega Set for Genesis 9 by: Zeddicuss, 3D Models by Daz 3D

    Last time I saw that level of bulge on the front of a thigh was with Victoria 3. It wasn't good then. It's doubly awful now that the preceding generation didn't show it.

    Regards, Richard

    For the interests of fairness & comparison, I thought I'd compare a V3 Character (Jim Burton's Glamorous Vickie, left, released Jan 2003), A G8 figure (CHB Milan, centre) and a G9 figure (V9, right) to see how they compared with a quick approximation of the pose above. I applied the pose to G8F and used my G8F->GV3.script to get the V3 character in the pose and my G8F/M->G9 script to get the G9 character in the pose. The results were, erm, unexpected.

    Looks like the V3 character shows least thigh bulge. Blow me! OK, V3's elbow's the worst by miles, but at this angle her glutes are OK. But it looks like for the thigh bulge V9 is the worst with this pose even though it's not as bad, and G8F isn't actually a lot better. Altering the Right Thight Twist 1 & 2 bones had zero effect. So, this problem is not limited to the G9 character so heavily criticised above. 

    Regards,

    Richard

    G8 G9 V3 JCM Comparison.png
    1000 x 1080 - 1M
    Post edited by richardandtracy on
  • PixelSploitingPixelSploiting Posts: 898

    G8 character thigh doesn't look great, but the glutes are ok. V9 bends like a plastic straw. Granted, glutes are visible only if character wears little, but there's also lack of definition at the midriff.

  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 5,882
    Agreed, and that is unadulterated V9. I've not bought anything G9 related since the V9 pre-order, so no morph packs or anything else to confuse the issue. Regards, Richard.
  • MasterstrokeMasterstroke Posts: 2,033

    The main problem here is, when you shorten the thighs proportions. These result in those crazy distortions. Bluejaunte characters don't have those problems because of their unnaturally long legs.

  • xyer0xyer0 Posts: 6,030

    richardandtracy said:

    richardandtracy said:

    xyer0 said:

    Quite a quad. Never seen anything like this.

    Z Spotlight Goddess Shape and Pose Mega Set for Genesis 9 by: Zeddicuss, 3D Models by Daz 3D

    Last time I saw that level of bulge on the front of a thigh was with Victoria 3. It wasn't good then. It's doubly awful now that the preceding generation didn't show it.

    Regards, Richard

    For the interests of fairness & comparison, I thought I'd compare a V3 Character (Jim Burton's Glamorous Vickie, left, released Jan 2003), A G8 figure (CHB Milan, centre) and a G9 figure (V9, right) to see how they compared with a quick approximation of the pose above. I applied the pose to G8F and used my G8F->GV3.script to get the V3 character in the pose and my G8F/M->G9 script to get the G9 character in the pose. The results were, erm, unexpected.

    Looks like the V3 character shows least thigh bulge. Blow me! OK, V3's elbow's the worst by miles, but at this angle her glutes are OK. But it looks like for the thigh bulge V9 is the worst with this pose even though it's not as bad, and G8F isn't actually a lot better. Altering the Right Thight Twist 1 & 2 bones had zero effect. So, this problem is not limited to the G9 character so heavily criticised above. 

    Regards,

    Richard

    Thank you, Richard! I bought Glamorous Vickie for $1.99 last month, and I haven't yet downloaded her. She looks good. The thigh bulge on G8 was surprising, but it looks natural. It reminds me of the thighs of some cheerleaders when I was growing up (many of them were built like gymnasts that didn't have to starve themselves). V9's thigh bulge doesn't look too bad, but it doesn't look human either. And her lack of any anatomical detail is disappointing. 

  • vonHobovonHobo Posts: 1,700

    richardandtracy said:

    richardandtracy said:

    xyer0 said:

    Quite a quad. Never seen anything like this.

    Z Spotlight Goddess Shape and Pose Mega Set for Genesis 9 by: Zeddicuss, 3D Models by Daz 3D

    Last time I saw that level of bulge on the front of a thigh was with Victoria 3. It wasn't good then. It's doubly awful now that the preceding generation didn't show it.

    Regards, Richard

    For the interests of fairness & comparison, I thought I'd compare a V3 Character (Jim Burton's Glamorous Vickie, left, released Jan 2003), A G8 figure (CHB Milan, centre) and a G9 figure (V9, right) to see how they compared with a quick approximation of the pose above. I applied the pose to G8F and used my G8F->GV3.script to get the V3 character in the pose and my G8F/M->G9 script to get the G9 character in the pose. The results were, erm, unexpected.

    Looks like the V3 character shows least thigh bulge. Blow me! OK, V3's elbow's the worst by miles, but at this angle her glutes are OK. But it looks like for the thigh bulge V9 is the worst with this pose even though it's not as bad, and G8F isn't actually a lot better. Altering the Right Thight Twist 1 & 2 bones had zero effect. So, this problem is not limited to the G9 character so heavily criticised above. 

    Regards,

    Richard

    What is up with the right foot on G9? It looks too rounded at the sole. Or am I just so used to the arches on the previous gens? 

  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 5,882
    edited February 2023
    I will check my pose transfer program to ensure that the metatarsal pose it transferred. I did the left side and copied the code for the right. There's a danger that I didn't rename the bone, I like to think I would have picked it up, but may not have done. Regards, Richard.
    Post edited by richardandtracy on
  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 5,882
    edited February 2023
    Just checked, I did not miss it. It appears I didn't fully understand the way the G9 metatarsals work. Unlike the G8 metatarsals (which bend the foot and move the toes), the G9 metatarsals seem to leave the toe position and angle alone and arch between the heel and toes. There is also a Left/Right Heeled Shoe slider for the foot bone, which is probably the one that needs to be activated by the G8 metatarsals setting. Now, as the heeled shoe slider affects the toe position and possibly angle too, I shall have to be a bit clever about how to do it. Given that I currently have a stinking cold and am feeling really ropey, it's a task for another day. Regards, Richard.
    Post edited by richardandtracy on
  • vonHobovonHobo Posts: 1,700

    richardandtracy said:

    Just checked, I did not miss it. It appears I didn't fully understand the way the G9 metatarsals work. Unlike the G8 metatarsals (which bend the foot and move the toes), the G9 metatarsals seem to leave the toe position and angle alone and arch between the heel and toes. There is also a Left/Right Heeled Shoe slider for the foot bone, which is probably the one that needs to be activated by the G8 metatarsals setting. Now, as the heeled shoe slider affects the toe position and possibly angle too, I shall have to be a bit clever about how to do it. Given that I currently have a stinking cold and am feeling really ropey, it's a task for another day. Regards, Richard.

    Thanks for the comparison. Really helpful!

  • alienareaalienarea Posts: 528

    I bought Belle and Angela 9, hoping G9 had improved. But it is like building a house - if the base isn't good, you'll always have issues.

    https://www.deviantart.com/alien-area/journal/Genesis-9-The-Lost-Generation-935834672

  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 5,882
    xyer0 said:

    richardandtracy said:

    richardandtracy said:

    xyer0 said:

    Quite a quad. Never seen anything like this.

    Z Spotlight Goddess Shape and Pose Mega Set for Genesis 9 by: Zeddicuss, 3D Models by Daz 3D

    Last time I saw that level of bulge on the front of a thigh was with Victoria 3. It wasn't good then. It's doubly awful now that the preceding generation didn't show it.

    Regards, Richard

    For the interests of fairness & comparison, I thought I'd compare a V3 Character (Jim Burton's Glamorous Vickie, left, released Jan 2003), A G8 figure (CHB Milan, centre) and a G9 figure (V9, right) to see how they compared with a quick approximation of the pose above. I applied the pose to G8F and used my G8F->GV3.script to get the V3 character in the pose and my G8F/M->G9 script to get the G9 character in the pose. The results were, erm, unexpected.

    Looks like the V3 character shows least thigh bulge. Blow me! OK, V3's elbow's the worst by miles, but at this angle her glutes are OK. But it looks like for the thigh bulge V9 is the worst with this pose even though it's not as bad, and G8F isn't actually a lot better. Altering the Right Thight Twist 1 & 2 bones had zero effect. So, this problem is not limited to the G9 character so heavily criticised above. 

    Regards,

    Richard

    Thank you, Richard! I bought Glamorous Vickie for $1.99 last month, and I haven't yet downloaded her. She looks good. The thigh bulge on G8 was surprising, but it looks natural. It reminds me of the thighs of some cheerleaders when I was growing up (many of them were built like gymnasts that didn't have to starve themselves). V9's thigh bulge doesn't look too bad, but it doesn't look human either. And her lack of any anatomical detail is disappointing. 

    GV3 is remarkably good looking. The hair in the image is Jim Burton's now unavailable 'Las Vegas' hair. As GV3 has a separate CR2 file and is not a morph of V3, it's actually quite hard to get clothing to fit. The bikini there is one of the ones Jim Burton did for the character. Lack of clothing is one of the reasons why I use her less than I'd like. Ah well. Regards, Richard

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,550
    edited February 2023

    Not all characters are created equally.

    Some PAs put little effort into creating JCMs to fix the bends on their figures, and others moreso.

    I can imagine it's not quite fair to compare a badly made G9 with a well made G8.

    Is the rigging and JCM issue inherent to G9 or merely a symptom of badly made characters and morph bundles?

    Post edited by lilweep on
  • CHWTCHWT Posts: 1,183

    https://www.daz3d.com/cgi-ghalen-for-genesis-9

    Guess that G9 should be a breeze to clothing creators but quite a pita when sculpting the actual body?

    Doughy.

  • xyer0xyer0 Posts: 6,030

    richardandtracy said:

    GV3 is remarkably good looking. The hair in the image is Jim Burton's now unavailable 'Las Vegas' hair. As GV3 has a separate CR2 file and is not a morph of V3, it's actually quite hard to get clothing to fit. The bikini there is one of the ones Jim Burton did for the character. Lack of clothing is one of the reasons why I use her less than I'd like. Ah well. Regards, Richard

     Thanks for the extra info. I'll have to see who wins between GV3 & GND2 (Girl Next Door).

  • xyer0xyer0 Posts: 6,030
    edited February 2023

    CHWT said:

    https://www.daz3d.com/cgi-ghalen-for-genesis-9

    Guess that G9 should be a breeze to clothing creators but quite a pita when sculpting the actual body?

    Doughy.

    It's time to return to characters for Michael 9 and (waiting for a female 9 with a universal non-Pillsbury body).

    Should've covered both elbows. Shrink-wrapped breasts like Genesis 1.

     

     

     

    Post edited by xyer0 on
  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 5,882

    xyer0 said:

    richardandtracy said:

    GV3 is remarkably good looking. The hair in the image is Jim Burton's now unavailable 'Las Vegas' hair. As GV3 has a separate CR2 file and is not a morph of V3, it's actually quite hard to get clothing to fit. The bikini there is one of the ones Jim Burton did for the character. Lack of clothing is one of the reasons why I use her less than I'd like. Ah well. Regards, Richard

     Thanks for the extra info. I'll have to see who wins between GV3 & GND2 (Girl Next Door).

    From the clothing availability stakes, I think they're pretty much equal as Karanta has done a certain amount for GND2. From the character shape side, both are unique. And, in all honesty I can't really choose between, maybe sligtly in favour of GV3. So most of my recent images with one in, also has the other. [ https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/6703616/#Comment_6703616 and subsequent posts, https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/5663501/#Comment_5663501 and https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/5611236/#Comment_5611236 ]

    Regards,

    Richard

  • xyer0xyer0 Posts: 6,030

    richardandtracy said:

    xyer0 said:

    richardandtracy said:

    GV3 is remarkably good looking. The hair in the image is Jim Burton's now unavailable 'Las Vegas' hair. As GV3 has a separate CR2 file and is not a morph of V3, it's actually quite hard to get clothing to fit. The bikini there is one of the ones Jim Burton did for the character. Lack of clothing is one of the reasons why I use her less than I'd like. Ah well. Regards, Richard

     Thanks for the extra info. I'll have to see who wins between GV3 & GND2 (Girl Next Door).

    From the clothing availability stakes, I think they're pretty much equal as Karanta has done a certain amount for GND2. From the character shape side, both are unique. And, in all honesty I can't really choose between, maybe sligtly in favour of GV3. So most of my recent images with one in, also has the other. [ https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/6703616/#Comment_6703616 and subsequent posts, https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/5663501/#Comment_5663501 and https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/5611236/#Comment_5611236 ]

    Regards,

    Richard

    Wow! Thanks for all the images. You really made them fit into Iray; too bad about the elbows. I presumed I'd be partial to GND2 because I like her long torso, but standing next to GV3, I think I like long legs better. If only there were a way to decrease the deltoids. I have everything available for GND2. Now to see what works on GV3. 

  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 5,882

    Who knows, maybe with modern tools it'd be easier to create JCM's than it was...

    Regards,

    Richard

  • PixelSploitingPixelSploiting Posts: 898

    lilweep said:

    Not all characters are created equally.

    Some PAs put little effort into creating JCMs to fix the bends on their figures, and others moreso.

    I can imagine it's not quite fair to compare a badly made G9 with a well made G8.

    Is the rigging and JCM issue inherent to G9 or merely a symptom of badly made characters and morph bundles?

     

     

    It's perfectly fair to compare basic characters with no extra morphs and base G9 still is loosing to base G8.

  • lilweeplilweep Posts: 2,550

    PixelSploiting said:

    lilweep said:

    Not all characters are created equally.

    Some PAs put little effort into creating JCMs to fix the bends on their figures, and others moreso.

    I can imagine it's not quite fair to compare a badly made G9 with a well made G8.

    Is the rigging and JCM issue inherent to G9 or merely a symptom of badly made characters and morph bundles?

     

     

    It's perfectly fair to compare basic characters with no extra morphs and base G9 still is loosing to base G8.

    Fair enough.  But people should actually cite the morphs that are in play when showcasing horrendous genesis 9 characters tho. 

    I will admit i just scanned this thread so maybe by and large people are doing that, but for instance you see cases where people are posting random pictures screeching "see genesis 9 is inherently bad because of this bulge" but they dont tell you what morphs were active.

    Pretty much every issue I saw could be fixed with a JCM, which comes down to PAs not supporting their characters properly rather than something inherently wrong with the geometry of Genesis 9.  I recognise that the topology flow of Genesis 9 is pretty bad but with its higher geometry you should be able to fix any bend issues with JCM.

  • PixelSploitingPixelSploiting Posts: 898
    edited February 2023

    Most of the people complaining in this thread, such as myself, often kitbash only using base G8 or G9 and Daz Originals body/head morph packs. If I have G9 base and DO official morph pack and then G8 and again only DO morph pack then it still is acomparison unfavorable for G9. G9 flagship V9 also comes worse than G8 V8. Better face on G9, but G8.1 was getting close enough with this, the body is a downgrade. Combine this with increased pricing on accessories and G9 is not a great start for a G8+ replacement.

    Great if PAs do corrective morphs for their characters, but then you are limited to products only from PAs doing this.

    G8 could get away with basic correctives built into the base figure. Unless the shape was really extreme. Even then adjusting rigging to shape could fix most of the issues.

    Post edited by PixelSploiting on
  • richardandtracyrichardandtracy Posts: 5,882

    @xyer0 I've PM'd you to keep further V3 stuff from gumming up this thread

    Regards,

    Richard

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