I Upgraded to an Nvidia 4090.......What a nightmare!
kwannie
Posts: 869
OK, so the 4090 is not the whole nightmare. The whole process of trying to attain a high performance machine hase been worse than a nightmare. This is just a heads up thread just in case anyone is thinking of doing this in the future.
So first things first I went to a local computer store to purchase and upgrade my sytem to a 3990, and found out my system did not meet the basic requirements.............So, time for a brand new build I ended up with [ AMD Ryzen 9 7950x, a Pro X670-P motherboard an Nvidia 3090 GPU and using DDR5 (64 GB) with Windows 10 Pro. Pretty Beefy system, and put it all together. Installed DS 4.20 and ran for about an hour then.......Boom!
1. Was doing a Iray render at 4K (GPU..mind you) System just went dead. Black screen no effect when pushing power on, no fan no lights on power supply. took system plugged into different outlet there a pop and a visible flame. Turned out to be a blown mosfet for CPU power. Called MSI and they had no leads but a possible faulty power supply. The store honored warranty swapped out pwer supply and put system back together. They ran test to push the sytem and called it good to go...............and claimed that the problem was that the integrated graphics of the CPU needed to be disabled in the BIOS which they did.
2. After setting up system at home during first running DAZ crashed. Then BSD, BSD, BSD..........................you get the picture. Once again back to the store They plugged it in............no crash of course. Until the manager and I were airing our frustrations the low and behold..........BSD. He replace the operating systm NVME Installed Windows, made tons of adjustments to fan profile, disabled auto tuning to overclocking.etc. tested DAZ..........and again called it good. Got it Home worked like a champ. Lightning Fast!
3. Unfortunately he just gotten a new Nvidia 4090 as we were in the store when I came to pick up my system and I said hmmmmmmm.........for a few hundered dollrs could we trade out the 3090 for a 4090. and he agreed. Bad Move!!!!
4.I took my perfectly fine barely used 3090 system back for the amazing installation of a (are you kidding me!!!!!) Nvidia 4090. I went to pick it up this afternoon and all the techs were just grinning about this awsome build. Of course with a 4090 we had to go with a bigger case and the manager suggested a 1200 watt power supply. They had it just purring...until!!! I did a test run with DAZ. Yep you guessed it..........Boom!!!!
5. First the 4090 sysem rendered a fully dressed G3F character at an 8K resolution (Ultra setting in rendering parameters) render completed in about 4 seconds at 600 iterations an 3 spotlights. Then tried to render a image series withan Aniblock and each frame started taking about 22 seconds at 1080 resolution. We monitored the GPU and the CPU in task manager and CPU wsag pegging to 100% using Iray. Tried to render in open GL and the system fans ramped up and it took 3 minutes to render at 1080 resolution. There were no backgroud programs running just DA, but CPU kept bogging down. Disable CPU rending and rendered in Iray still 22 seconds per frame in Iray ( I was getting 3 seconds per frame at 600 iterations with same scene with the 3090)
6. Now manager is thinking maybe its Windows registry issues because placing the same data drive NVME ( My Library) and cloned operatating system (with DAZ in Program Files) NVME might be causing the sluggish performance. He wants to lean towards the issue being a setting in DAZ but the log file shows do particular errors
Any Thoughts???
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Comments
Do you have an NVIDIA driver version installed that is compatible with the 4090 and your version of Daz Studio?
I see you are using DS 4.20,not 4.21. Does the version of Iray in 4.20 support the 4000 series cards?Sorry Barbult... yes When I had the 3090 installation working well I had re installed DAZ ver. 4.21 to all the default directories. As far as I know the tech used the latest NVidia 4090 Studio Driver. I saw version 528.xx.
It is in shop now so I can't verify. Problem is system stats seem great to techs. and DAZworks but very sluggish renders. CPU seems to always be busy
@kwannie: to be honest, your upgrade to 3090 already sounds like a nightmare.
could it be antivirus related?
some are overzealous and since the CPU is ramping up using DAZ it could be the PostgreSQL processes or something being scanned
you need to test using other programs that tax the GPU also to rule out something DAZ studio related
I hope you are not using ZoneAlarm
Swapping out that AMD for an Intel?
I bought a top of the line AMD laptop with a 3080 in it last year and it's without a doubt the worst system I've ever own, with many of the same issues you're referring to my. It's the only AMD unit I've ever owned or built. Would never go the AMD route ever again after the experience with this MSI laptop.
Oodles of compassion.
Had the old GPU drivers been completely removed before installing new driver? There's a tool for that.
https://pureinfotech.com/uninstall-graphics-driver-ddu-windows-10/
If you haven't already checked, there are numerous YouTubes from techheads demonstrating problems with 4090 GPUs
I've had issues with GPUs but I don't play on the top floor so I never had uber-expensive issues like that, but I commiserate.
Thanks for all the wonderful feedback, I will get the techs to give the that tool a whirl Leather. Wendy I didn't Install a name brand anti-virus yet but what does PostgreSQL do anyway?? I love the way that the 16 cores on the 7950x were handling PWToon with the 3090 build (2 seconds per frame at 1080) then I ruined all that by opting to immediately trade out for a 4090. I just don't get why the 4090 build can render a single frame fast then gets bogged down rendering each frame when doing an image series. I definately don't get why it bogs down doing a single frame in OpenGL and takes more than 3 minutes for a single frame, that should be instantaneous.
handles all the metadata, smart content etc
I am totally ignorant BTW but do know there were AVs such as ZoneAlarm which clashed with it
You, or whoever is building your computer, aren't by chance enabling that AMD "StoreMI" scheme iin the BIOS and installed the "StoreMI" drivers in Windows have you?
I have a Gigabyte AM4 450 based motherboard but the only BSOD I've ever gotten with Windows since the oughts that wasn't a failed Windows upgrade was when I enabled AMD StoreMI in the BIOS and installed the StoreMI drivers in Windows. I regularly got BSODs rendering in DAZ Studio then but when I removed those AMD StoreMI drivers and disabled the AMD StoreMI in the BIOS the BSODs when away.
Now that was Feb - Mar 2020 and maybe AMD has fixed their StoreMI drivers and given a fixed BIOS update for StoreMI to motherboard manufacturers but given that DAZ Studio is in the big scheme of things, obscure software, maybe they haven't fixed those problems.
That's the extent of my personal experience with AMD Zen arch Windows BSODs, sorry if that doesn't help you resolve your problem.
For me rendering a 3d model in daz will destroy your system. it destroyed mine.
When ever one wants to do something "Heavy" with a computer, it starts with selecting the components for the system and often the advice from the gaming community isn't what one should be looking at.
What one should be looking at, is systems designed and built for business / heavy duty computing - These systems may not get the top scores in the gaming benchmarks, but they carry the load the better scoring gaming rigs can't
Setting up the OS and programs is also important, the principle should be, that the computer belongs to you and it should be doing stuff you want it to do - Keep it clean and simple
So the PSU blew - did they swap the motherboard out too? As any PSU issue could affect any part of the system - and if you're still having issues after the PSU, I would assume it has damaged some other component.
You really need them to swap out everything until it works as it should, there is no reason for it to be acting up as it is.
In interest of fairness, I've ran DS on both Intel and AMD, from dual CPU Xeons, to Threadrippers - and never had an issue. So while I am not discrediting your experience, it's not necessiarly an AMD issue.
I enabled mine on both my computers one intel and one AMD both using Nvidia cards and it has never caused me issues
(reason being running a second monitor for programs that utilised those graphics, saved my butt when Dforce wasn't working on a recent Nvidia driver too)
How did that happen?
Must've had hardware issues beforehand because just rendering something doesn't "destroy your computer". Never once in 18 years of producing products have I had a render "destroy" or even brake anything. Hardware issues have on the other hand occurred.
I'm an AMD girl when it comes to CPU's and can't say I've had any issues going back several systems. Right now I'm running a 5900X with 3090 and it has been rock solid with everything I throw at it, including DS.
To the OP, personally I would have stuck with the 3090. If given the chance today, and someone wanted to gift me with a 4090, I would sell it and keep my 3090. I don't trust that new high power connector system. Too much room for failure and failure due to user error with so much power going through such a small point. There was nothing wrong with the old power delivery system. I will be skipping the 4XXX generation entirely and I genuinely hope they figure stuff out for the 5XXX series because nope nope noper.
Yes, I have in my Gigabyte MB the AMD 5700G APU GPU enabled and have my main monitor on the MB HDMI port. The other monitor is on the nVidia GeForce 3060 12GB. The AMD 5700G APU would not drive the MB HDMI monitor until I enabled the integrated graphics as "forced" in the BIOS. I have never had a BSOD since doing that either, although I have to have both AMD and nVidia GPU drivers installed through.
I did actually destroy an old laptop because of DAZ Studio rendering. I never shut it off and did about 3 CPU renders a week as there was no discrete GPU. Renders that lasted days, not minutes or hours. That made the circuits in the laptop HOT, HOT, HOT for about the entire 2 years that it was never shut down. I shutdown the laptop for 2 days once finally, those HOT, HOT, HOT circuits cooled as they hadn't in 2 years, and cracked in 2. Laptop = toast. Also, as Solaris systems administrator at very large enterprise installations I had the same experience. In charge of a server that I am not allowed to shutdown except for once in a blue moon upgrades over a period of years (so they don't cool all the way off) and then get asked to move them to another building, they cool completely off, and your boss goes into a tizzy because a couple servers are now broken as you are on the phone calling the contracted external hardware vendor to come replace broken HW.
It can probably happen with newer HW too, if you intentionally overclock it and render or so compute intense stuff for months and years on end without shutting down and cooling off daily or weekly. I don't think it would happen though if you don't OC, not with these new circuits.
That's pretty interesting, especially about the laptop. I'm impressed that it tolerated that heat running that way for two years. I'd have expected something to fail. I usually shut my system down daily.
Actually Lovelace is extremely power efficient and performant. With Daz Iray it doesn't even get near 300 Watts, so we are talking about it potentially using less power than a 3090 and beating it easily while doing so. The 4090 is using so little power with Iray that I wonder if there is a mistake.
Even in games there are none that push the 4090 anywhere close to the advertised 450 Watt TDP. And the whole cable thing was pretty much solved by Gamersnexus. Ever since they made that video, things suddenly just stopped. Even the site talking the loudest about the cable, Igorslab, completely shutup about it and has now moved on to the next headline grabbing topic they can find (AMD's overheating issue.) Their last article covering the cable was November 14, followed by...silence. Keep in mind that Gamersnexus has constantly bashed Nvidia very publicly about a lot of things before and after this incident. Just in case anybody is thinking that GN has some sort of bias towards them. Not one outlet refuted GN's findings. Just plug in your cable properly...it is a non issue. If I had the spare cash to buy a 4090 I would do so without the slightest hesitation. But I do not have the spare cash.
And if by chance you still think the 4090 is using too much power, you can make one simple adjustment on the power dial and boom, you can drop over 100 Watts and lose maybe 5% at the very most. At that point you will operating with far, far fewer Watts than any 3090 while completly blowing it out of the water.
The 4nm process fab is no joke. That is the key to whole thing. They nearly tripled their transistor count AND used a smaller size die than Ampere. AD102 is 608mm² while GA102 is 628mm². This is how the 4090 can use less power, it is a physically smaller die. It is only when clocked to the moon that it draws so much power, and I really do not understand what Nvidia was thinking with cranking the clocks so high. It really should be a 350 Watt card at most, and it can be for anyone who buys it.
As for what may be happening to the Op's PC. It is hard to say. They built an entire new system, so there are a lot of factors here. It certainly is not AMD, as my 5800X has been rock solid. My suggestion is Daz Studio itself. I do not believe this is a hardware issue. It is a software issue. Daz Studio 4.21 has a laundry list of complaints in its dedicated thread. There are complaints about the animation timeline, though not specifically like what the Op is complaining about, my money is still on Daz 4.21 being the problem.
If Daz is taking so long between animation frames, it could be that Daz is reloading everything between every frame, and thus wasting a lot of time. If by chance you are not using the Iray Viewport, try using it while rendering animations. This can help keep the scene in VRAM so it doesn't have to reload for every frame. Try checking your viewport options, these are separate from the Iray render settings. There has to be something causing the scene to reload every frame. Maybe 4.21 has altered the options somehow.
If you still have your old Daz install somewhere, you can try using it as well. Take a real good look at all the setting you used, and then compare to 4.21.
I love it when when many of you forum heavy hitters jump into the discussion. Turns out that there were many registry issues that occured during so many changes in a short period of time. They simply cloned the NVME drive that operating sytem was on so there were a few files that left registry clutter when the Windows install was in the 3090 System. I got the beast home from the store and what Outrider said is on point. The readings in HW monitor barely move the needle for power consumption or even GPU activity. What I found amazing is that I render a full HD (1920x1080) in an environment such as Jazz Corner and a character on stage and get no noise in the render output at only 200 iterations. I have not had a single crash yet with DS ver 2.21. Pwtoon renders extremely fast with the 7950x. So I would have to say this endeaver is turning out to be something of a nice dream instead of a nightmare. The journey has certainly been less than desirable though, and I don't even want to think about the final $$$$. Yikes!! Overall I don't know that render speeds while be that jaw dropping, but the fact that you can take the heaviest of envirements and add several characters and still render in full HD and get amazingly clear results in a matter of seconds a 4990 and 7950x are worth the plunge. I am at 64 Gb of ram right now I wonder how much of a performance boost would occur at 96 Gb.
Sure sounds like a 4090 is a good pick for Iray rendering.
It's fair. I'm pretty CPU agnostic (heck I even owned a Cyrix), I've just never had this many issues ever. Even updating bios, running memory checkers,etc. it passes fine. It's chronically fails when handling large number processing when I use the old system crasher tools. Always a chance it's a bad unit, but after this I'm not episode I'm not leaving the Intel farm again.
Back in the Commodore 64 days it was said that they lasted longer if you left them turned on constantly instead of turning them on and off all the time, because of the constant expansion and contraction of the chips. The chips got very hot and the quality was probably not as good as it is today.
Just want to point out if Iray is the primary focus and you GPU render, you do not need a beefy CPU. In fact you can get away with very little in this regard since the Daz Studio app doesn't use many threads. Some specific plugins might make use of more threads, but the app itself generally just uses one.
So a CPU with good single core performance is more important than lots of cores that might be slower individually (like Xeon or Threadripper). You do need a core for every GPU that you use, as they direct traffic. But that isn't an issue with modern CPUs since even low end CPUs offer 4 cores, and odds are most users are not going to be running more than 4 GPUs.
If you use other software, then sure, a better CPU can help. But for Daz Studio you can skimp on the CPU and save some money. You don't need the latest and greatest CPU platform, just good enough.
Actually it is not. You are talking about a laptop. You can have all kinds of issues from poor cooling to motherboard problems. All AMD does is supply a CPU. They do not design the board or other internals.
Laptops are different for many reasons. Intel has a 5-1 sales advantage over AMD in this sector, so vendors will put more effort into the more popular products. One thing that does give Intel an advantage is how they will assist vendors with design more than AMD will. Intel may even put forth a package design for vendors to follow. So in this regard, the vendors don't have to do as much. It is something that AMD probably could do better, but at the same time, it is not exactly AMD's fault if the laptop is not built as well. There are plenty of perfectly fine AMD laptops.
This is different with desktop, where AMD has been selling their CPUs very well and top the sales charts. So you will see better built motherboards to support them. AMD is just fine here, and they are dominating desktop for a reason. You will not have these problems on a desktop if you get a good board.
can confirm, I only have a Ryzen 3 32GB RAM with an RTX2080Ti
the RAM helps with scene loads but the CPU really doesn't do much renderwise if stuff fits on the GPU
if it doesn't I use my other computer without a GPU but a better CPU
Yes, the older the electonic circuit the more they recommended leaving it on all the time or I think plugged in was good enough as they were designed to draw a bit of "standby" current to stay "warm". You might remember when televisions first started getting electronic circuits in them that almost invariably when the television broke it was a cracked circuit in the TV's circuit board.
You never described your cooling system. How are you cooling down your CPU, and you never mentioned anything about temperatures, are you monitoring them, what do they say. It's easy to throw a lot of power at something, but excessive heat needs to be drawn off too.
Ah yes! The cooling factor. AMD is currently scrambling to warrantee replace some of their graphics cards that are exhibiting serious and rapid overheating because of debris in the cooling fluid. Here's the most recent video about it (last article; 12:29 "AMD admits faulty vapor chamber causes RX-7900 XTX throttling")
And there are similar problems with other graphics cards and liquid coolers for CPUs. Over time the fluid chemically reacts with itself or the enclosing chamber or sealing goo or gaskets to produce debris that clogs up the tiny channels in the cooling block. The more I hear about liquid CPU coolers, the more I'm glad I never swam in that ocean.