Is it acceptable practice to retexture Materials from Genesis 8 for use in a paid G8 skin product?

Art2Eager

Hello. I am working on a texture set for Genesis 8.1. It's going better than I expected, and I'm considering tyring to sell the results. However, I noticed there don't seem to be any official tutorials for creating new materials. All I see at http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/userguide/creating_content/surfacing/start are guidelines for creating UVs and Surface Groups.

I realize that, in a technical sense, creating a new skin material is as simple as loading up Genesis 8.1 and replacing the textures. My question is, is this considered acceptable practice? If not, then how do published skin authors create their materials for distribution, and where can I learn that process?

Thank you!

FenixPhoenix

No, you cannot use existing textures (unless they are merchant resource and, even then, you need to follow their own rules and guidelines on acceptable uses) to create new textures and sell them. There are sites that sell skin textures for you to alter and create new textures sets from (with commercial purposes allowed). DAZ also sells some of these (such as: example, example, example), but again, you need to make sure that they are merchant resource skins and then follow their guidelines.

Of course, you can also paint them from scratch using a 3d painting program (such as Adobe Substance) as well.

FenixPhoenix

Oh, just occurred to me that I may have misunderstood the question. If it's related on how to "package" the product for selling here, rather than how to create the skin maps, then disregard my previous post, as the answer is as follows:

1. Create a clean library where you only have the starter essentials installed to avoid includying things from other products when saving.
2. Create a new library for your own product. There you'll want to have two folders (if this product is going to be a texture only product):
   • Runtime/Textures/PAname/ProductName >> here you want to include all the textures you created for your product. Remember these all need to have been created and owned by you.
   • People/Genesis 8 Female/Materials/PA Name (optional)/Product Name
3. Launch your DAZ program with only your clean library installed (essentials) and the library you created for your product.
4. Load Genesis 8.1 Female and work on setting up your skin maps and skin settings via the surface panel. Ensure you aren't using any maps that do not belong to you and that all maps are loaded from your product runtime. It's important that you connect the library with your product to DAZ so that the paths are created correctly once you save your material presets.
5. Once you're satisfied, save as either material presets or hierarchical material presets.
6. Create thumbnails for your material presets (PNGs, 91 x 91) and use them to replace the duf.png generated by DAZ when you saved your skins. You can also include TIP files (250x250 PNGs).

 

Art2Eager

FenixPhoenix said:

No, you cannot use existing textures (unless they are merchant resource and, even then, you need to follow their own rules and guidelines on acceptable uses) to create new textures and sell them. There are sites that sell skin textures for you to alter and create new textures sets from (with commercial purposes allowed). DAZ also sells some of these (such as: example, example, example), but again, you need to make sure that they are merchant resource skins and then follow their guidelines.

Of course, you can also paint them from scratch using a 3d painting program (such as Adobe Substance) as well.

Thank you for your quick response, Fenix. :)

The textures are 100% original. They were generated from the Genesis 8 UVs using procedural noise in Blender and then hand-painted over the top of it using Krita. I'm asking if it's okay to use the G8 Materials as a starting point, or if other authors create their own original materials from scratch. And if so, how do I learn more about that process.

Sorry for any confusion.

Art2Eager

FenixPhoenix said:

Oh, just occurred to me that I may have misunderstood the question. If it's related on how to "package" the product for selling here, rather than how to create the skin maps, then disregard my previous post, as the answer is as follows:

1. Create a clean library where you only have the starter essentials installed to avoid includying things from other products when saving.
2. Create a new library for your own product. There you'll want to have two folders (if this product is going to be a texture only product):
   • Runtime/Textures/PAname/ProductName >> here you want to include all the textures you created for your product. Remember these all need to have been created and owned by you.
   • People/Genesis 8 Female/Materials/PA Name (optional)/Product Name
3. Launch your DAZ program with only your clean library installed (essentials) and the library you created for your product.
4. Load Genesis 8.1 Female and work on setting up your skin maps and skin settings via the surface panel. Ensure you aren't using any maps that do not belong to you and that all maps are loaded from your product runtime. It's important that you connect the library with your product to DAZ so that the paths are created correctly once you save your material presets.
5. Once you're satisfied, save as either material presets or hierarchical material presets.
6. Create thumbnails for your material presets (PNGs, 91 x 91) and use them to replace the duf.png generated by DAZ when you saved your skins. You can also include TIP files (250x250 PNGs).

That's what I needed to know. Thank you very much! :) :) :)

FenixPhoenix

warpzone32_3ad3e4639b said:

FenixPhoenix said:

Oh, just occurred to me that I may have misunderstood the question. If it's related on how to "package" the product for selling here, rather than how to create the skin maps, then disregard my previous post, as the answer is as follows:

1. Create a clean library where you only have the starter essentials installed to avoid includying things from other products when saving.
2. Create a new library for your own product. There you'll want to have two folders (if this product is going to be a texture only product):
   • Runtime/Textures/PAname/ProductName >> here you want to include all the textures you created for your product. Remember these all need to have been created and owned by you.
   • People/Genesis 8 Female/Materials/PA Name (optional)/Product Name
3. Launch your DAZ program with only your clean library installed (essentials) and the library you created for your product.
4. Load Genesis 8.1 Female and work on setting up your skin maps and skin settings via the surface panel. Ensure you aren't using any maps that do not belong to you and that all maps are loaded from your product runtime. It's important that you connect the library with your product to DAZ so that the paths are created correctly once you save your material presets.
5. Once you're satisfied, save as either material presets or hierarchical material presets.
6. Create thumbnails for your material presets (PNGs, 91 x 91) and use them to replace the duf.png generated by DAZ when you saved your skins. You can also include TIP files (250x250 PNGs).

That's what I needed to know. Thank you very much! :) :) :)

You're welcome. I advice after you have it all saved, to test it in a different computer. Let me know if you require any more help and I'll be happy to lend a hand. :) Good luck!

Art2Eager

Can I just install a second instance of DAZ on this computer and direct it to use a different runtime that just has G8 in it, and try installing it there as the test?

FenixPhoenix

warpzone32_3ad3e4639b said:

Can I just install a second instance of DAZ on this computer and direct it to use a different runtime that just has G8 in it, and try installing it there as the test?

Yes, although with textures you want to ensure that within the dufs you don't get any absolute paths to the textures (meaning that the path that shows the texture starts with /Runtime rather than your own hard drive). You can always use Batch Convert within DAZ to uncompress the duf files and check the paths by opening one of them via notepad.

chris-2599934

warpzone32_3ad3e4639b said:

FenixPhoenix said:

No, you cannot use existing textures (unless they are merchant resource and, even then, you need to follow their own rules and guidelines on acceptable uses) to create new textures and sell them. There are sites that sell skin textures for you to alter and create new textures sets from (with commercial purposes allowed). DAZ also sells some of these (such as: example, example, example), but again, you need to make sure that they are merchant resource skins and then follow their guidelines.

Of course, you can also paint them from scratch using a 3d painting program (such as Adobe Substance) as well.

Thank you for your quick response, Fenix. :)

The textures are 100% original. They were generated from the Genesis 8 UVs using procedural noise in Blender and then hand-painted over the top of it using Krita. I'm asking if it's okay to use the G8 Materials as a starting point, or if other authors create their own original materials from scratch. And if so, how do I learn more about that process.

Sorry for any confusion.

What's the difference, in your terms, between "textures" and "materials"?

I quite often make stuff (albeit not for sale, yet) where my first step is to use the texture file(s) of a paid-for product as a guideline for making my own. So, for example, when making the GeoBra, I started with a G3F torso texture in my graphics program, put a 50% opaque black layer over it (so I could still see the skin), and drew the bra in white over the top. When I was happy with it, I turned the black layer up to 100% opaque and made my mask files. Because not a single pixel of the skin layer made it into the finished product, there's no problem with this kind of usage - if that's what you're doing, you're ok.

Art2Eager

chris-2599934 said:

What's the difference, in your terms, between "textures" and "materials"?

I quite often make stuff (albeit not for sale, yet) where my first step is to use the texture file(s) of a paid-for product as a guideline for making my own. So, for example, when making the GeoBra, I started with a G3F torso texture in my graphics program, put a 50% opaque black layer over it (so I could still see the skin), and drew the bra in white over the top. When I was happy with it, I turned the black layer up to 100% opaque and made my mask files. Because not a single pixel of the skin layer made it into the finished product, there's no problem with this kind of usage - if that's what you're doing, you're ok.

Well, a Texture is just a picture. Usually a PNG or a JPEG. It contains color information in the form of pixels arranged in a grid. When combined with a UV Map, a texture can be used to tint the surface of a 3D object different colors.

A Material, sometimes called a Surface, is a collection of all the properties of a surface of an object. It contains the settings for all the different "layers" of a Surface. You know, Diffuse, Specular, Roughness, Bump, Metalic, etc.

Usually, one Material references several Textures, as well as some solid colors and numerical values.

Then there's the Shader, which is a bit of code that tells a 3D Rendering Engine which maths to use to convert all those values from the Material into the final image output. Often, many Materials in a scene will use the same Shader. Skin Shaders are one example of a specific use-case in which buying a custom Shader from the store might be better than using the default Shaders.

And finally there's the Rendering Engine, such as 3DLite or Iray, which is the program used to perform the actual render. Materials must be created with a specific Engine in mind. Usually you choose an Engine to optimize for one of two things: render speed or render quality. Occasionally, you might want a specific Engine because of its feature set, or to accomplish a specific look for a specific project. Custom renderers are out there, but I'm pretty sure most people doing Daz renders don't need them.

Fun fact: these terms are not unique to the 3D rendering scene. Most modern AAA video games also use a graphics engine, a shader language, a materials system, and many, many textures. The main difference is the engine is designed for real-time performance, rather than pre-rendering. Daz's Iray Preview and Blender's Eevee are examples of hybrid Rendering Engines that can do both real-time display and pre-rendering. (Given adequate hardware, of course.)

The reason I asked is because I had heard at some point in the past that you can't sell products with Iray Materials in them, or something like that, due to the lisencing terms. If anyone can elaborate or fact-check me on that, I'd appreciate it.

Art2Eager

chris-2599934 said:

I quite often make stuff (albeit not for sale, yet) where my first step is to use the texture file(s) of a paid-for product as a guideline for making my own. So, for example, when making the GeoBra, I started with a G3F torso texture in my graphics program, put a 50% opaque black layer over it (so I could still see the skin), and drew the bra in white over the top. When I was happy with it, I turned the black layer up to 100% opaque and made my mask files. Because not a single pixel of the skin layer made it into the finished product, there's no problem with this kind of usage - if that's what you're doing, you're ok

I was under the impression that this is what the Texture Templates were for. They're basically textures that show a particular model's UV map. Again, if anyone can confirm or deny, that would be very helpful. :)

Richard Haseltine

warpzone32_3ad3e4639b said:

chris-2599934 said:

What's the difference, in your terms, between "textures" and "materials"?

I quite often make stuff (albeit not for sale, yet) where my first step is to use the texture file(s) of a paid-for product as a guideline for making my own. So, for example, when making the GeoBra, I started with a G3F torso texture in my graphics program, put a 50% opaque black layer over it (so I could still see the skin), and drew the bra in white over the top. When I was happy with it, I turned the black layer up to 100% opaque and made my mask files. Because not a single pixel of the skin layer made it into the finished product, there's no problem with this kind of usage - if that's what you're doing, you're ok.

Well, a Texture is just a picture. Usually a PNG or a JPEG. It contains color information in the form of pixels arranged in a grid. When combined with a UV Map, a texture can be used to tint the surface of a 3D object different colors.

A Material, sometimes called a Surface, is a collection of all the properties of a surface of an object. It contains the settings for all the different "layers" of a Surface. You know, Diffuse, Specular, Roughness, Bump, Metalic, etc.

A surface is a division of the model, a material is a collection of data specifiying which shader and settings should be applied to a surface.

Usually, one Material references several Textures, as well as some solid colors and numerical values.

Then there's the Shader, which is a bit of code that tells a 3D Rendering Engine which maths to use to convert all those values from the Material into the final image output. Often, many Materials in a scene will use the same Shader. Skin Shaders are one example of a specific use-case in which buying a custom Shader from the store might be better than using the default Shaders.

And finally there's the Rendering Engine, such as 3DLite or Iray, which is the program used to perform the actual render. Materials must be created with a specific Engine in mind. Usually you choose an Engine to optimize for one of two things: render speed or render quality. Occasionally, you might want a specific Engine because of its feature set, or to accomplish a specific look for a specific project. Custom renderers are out there, but I'm pretty sure most people doing Daz renders don't need them.

Fun fact: these terms are not unique to the 3D rendering scene. Most modern AAA video games also use a graphics engine, a shader language, a materials system, and many, many textures. The main difference is the engine is designed for real-time performance, rather than pre-rendering. Daz's Iray Preview and Blender's Eevee are examples of hybrid Rendering Engines that can do both real-time display and pre-rendering. (Given adequate hardware, of course.)

The reason I asked is because I had heard at some point in the past that you can't sell products with Iray Materials in them, or something like that, due to the lisencing terms. If anyone can elaborate or fact-check me on that, I'd appreciate it.

FenixPhoenix

warpzone32_3ad3e4639b said:

The reason I asked is because I had heard at some point in the past that you can't sell products with Iray Materials in them, or something like that, due to the lisencing terms. If anyone can elaborate or fact-check me on that, I'd appreciate it.

 

So if you're planning on selling a Skin Texture set for let's say Genesis 8 Females, then you will need to:

1. Create your texture maps.
2. Decide which shader you'll be using (Iray Uber or the PBRSkin Shader). Both are available in the free DAZ Essentials.
3. Set your maps on the relevant channels and decide on your settings. PAs have different ways to set their textures maps, so it's up to you what chanels you'll use and how you'll use them. If you're unfamiliar with the channels and what they do, you may want to find information and/or study the settings of different PAs to come up with your own.
4. Once you've set your skin settings and they are working to your satisfaction, then you want to save them out as either material presets or hierarchical material presets.

I hope this answers your questions :).

Art2Eager

My question was about what we're allowed to do, not what it's possible to do. If you're saying it's common practice to use the DAZ Essentials shaders when setting up a commercial skin product, then I assume we're allowed to do that. :P

What if it were an original object, for example, a chair? Assume it's already UV mapped and correctly imported into DAZ. I could have sworn I read somewhere that we're not allowed to use the Iray shaders for something...

FenixPhoenix

Yes, you are able to use the shaders included in the Genesis 3/8 Base essentials. The shaders will simply give you the channels to use. It's then your responsibility to create and add maps and decide on the values/colors for each channel. What you can't do is use shaders sold here to texture your own products to sell unless they are merchant resources.

Art2Eager

Thank you! That makes sense, and it's about what I expected. I'm guessing maybe the original context was a conversation about making clothing? And whomever I was talking to at the time was saying something about people only wanting to buy realistic-looking clothing, but realistic cloth requiring merchant resource shaders? Which isn't a deal-breaker, it just raises the effective barrier-to-entry for making clothing products.