8k skin textures?

RexRed

Can anyone tell me which Genesis 8 figures have 8k skin textures?

Thanks in advance.

RexRed

I ask this because it is very confusing because the Daz models list in the store as "HD" models but my understanding, and that of Wikipedia, is that HD refers to no higher than 1080p, higher than that one uses terms like 2k, 4k, 6k, 8k...  and/or UHD.

Also to just list resolutions... How are those resolutions applied across the figure? That is also confusing. Are they HD or UHD? 

I am finding the models listed as having 4096 x 4096 "HD" do render nicely at very high render resolutions.

I would like to try the 8k HD models also and compare the results if there is such a thing yet in the Daz store...

Thanks...

 

RexRed

I just thought of something...

I learned a little about "texels" a couple days ago.

I wonder if Daz figures have enough texels to load an 8k texture?

It seems the underlying geometry would need to be upgraded to do so as was probably the case with 4k.

Paintbox

4k simply refers to 4096 = 4k

The HD moniker simply refers to "High Density" , but these days it can also be marketing speak for "High quality"

So a HD character just means it has a higher detailing than in general. It has nothing to do with the terms for TVs or Monitors.

Richard Haseltine

HD refers to the morphs, not the textures. HD morphs can work on the virtual vertices created by sub-division, regular morphs work only on the cage mesh.

RexRed

Paintbox and Richard you have both cleared a lot of confusion up. Thanks.

I know to look for 4k textures and not use anything less for my large renders. So far that is working out really well!

I am still curious as to when 8k skin will be available for Daz figures. Sometime soon I hope.

Especially for portraits, good skin is the hallmark of photorealism. :)

I think high density means more texels which allows for the 4k skin to be applied.

So for 8k skin there will need to be even more density. 

Seven193

Whether or not a character uses 8k maps, is probably up to the content creator, and not Daz.

I'm sure a content creator can get their maps from other sources.  I don't think they're restricted to 4k maps by any rule. It's just that everything quadruples when you use 8k maps, including memory and hard drive space.  A single 8k normal map in 16-bit resolution can be over 100 MB. Huge.

RexRed

I saw a video the other day that explained that there are texels underneath a texture. This means the texels have to be denser in order for a figure to be able to accept a higher resolution image over top of it.

The part I don't know is if Daz makes the figure have more texels or if the artist who creates the figure does that.

Since (I believe) Daz owns the base models it seems they might be the one who creates the "standard" denser models so artists can add their textures to them but that is just a guess.

FSMCDesigns

RexRed said:

Paintbox and Richard you have both cleared a lot of confusion up. Thanks.

I know to look for 4k textures and not use anything less for my large renders. So far that is working out really well!

I am still curious as to when 8k skin will be available for Daz figures. Sometime soon I hope.

Especially for portraits, good skin is the hallmark of photorealism. :)

I think high density means more texels which allows for the 4k skin to be applied.

So for 8k skin there will need to be even more density. 

4K textures are pretty much the norm and many users have issues with using those since they take a ton of resources, especially when you have more than one figure with a different skin. There was a recent thread where the vendor included a few 8k textures for specific details and many users were having performance issues becaus of them, so i wouldn't bet on 8k textures being the nrom for quite awhile.

To get the best out of any HD texture you will need to crank the subdivision up and this in itself will kill performance for many.

While there are probably a few PAs that have state of the art systems and want to push the limits of their tech, they have to take into account what the customers have and cater more to their needs and unfortunately many have middle of the road systems.

Mattymanx

A 8K map will use 4 times as much resources as a 4K map.

A 4K map will use 16 times more resources than a 1K map.

Info listed from this product: https://www.daz3d.com/resource-saver-shaders-collection-for-iray - (please note that some info there pertains to Ds 4.10 and earlier as DS 4.11 and up have newer versions of Iray that handle textures much better than before)

 

RexRed

Yes, Matty, that attachment is how I saw that the texels are represented. The squares need to be made smaller for a higher resolution texture to be applied to it.

RexRed

Substance Painter Tutorial – Model Preparation 01: UV Mapping and Texel Density

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwusznnkRxo&t=608s

Seven193

There are HDRI environments with 8k maps because they usually offer 4k maps too in the same product. This is to support all end users.

So, what you're really asking is for a content creator to include an entire set of 4k maps and an entire set of 8k maps in the same product  I don't see a content creator doing that, nor do I see them releasing two products with different map resolutions just to satisfy a small percentage of people who want them.  Or at least it has never been done before to my knowledge.

 

lilweep

RexRed said:

Yes, Matty, that attachment is how I saw that the texels are represented. The squares need to be made smaller for a higher resolution texture to be applied to it.

Smaller?  The biggest parts of a UV map will get more of a texture map and will have higher texel density.

A UV map links the model's geometry with the texture; the geometry itself doesnt inform how a texture will look, only the UV map.You can apply an 8K texture to any model regardless of geometry - it's how the UV is set up to map the texture to the model that counts.

The UV map can assign a large portion of the pixels of a texture to one specific part of a model, and very few pixels of a texture to another.  This is the texel density.  This concept is explained in the video you posted.

Anyway, in conclusion, G8 figures can accommodate 8k, 16k maps etc.

 

lilweep

Dave230 said:

There are HDRI environments with 8k maps because they usually offer 4k maps too in the same product. This is to support all end users.

So, what you're really asking is for a content creator to include an entire set of 4k maps and an entire set of 8k maps in the same product  I don't see a content creator doing that, nor do I see them releasing two products with different map resolutions just to satisfy a small percentage of people who want them.  Or at least it has never been done before to my knowledge.

 

How is that a big ask to include two material presets lol? - many PAs include multiple textures for figures and material presets - albeit not 4k and 8k options.  Implicit in your line of reasoning is that this is a monumental amount of work for a PA to export a texture set at 4k and then again at 8k.  Which it isnt.  My concern is how much disk space the products will take up if they all have 8k map options.

Strangefate did this with the Crows Inn, i think.  I don't own this product but  I believe it had various resolution material options.

Seven193

Including both sets of maps is the logical choice, I'm just saying I've never seen it done before for a character.  And you're assuming content creators have access to 8k map character resources, which they may not, at least not from Daz.

StrangeFate

@RexRed - Daz characters already have about twice the texel density on the face compared to the rest of the body which is the same as using about twice the texture size as the torso, arms etc.

There's probably several reasons why porttrait renders might not look great.

1. Textures might have decent resolution but be have flat specular or bumpmap information. I see that on a lot of figure promos on the store, which makes the figures seem to have less resolution than they have as the speculars and bumps doesn't follow and accentuate the skin details. This can be an issue with the gloss or bump maps alone, or both, depends of the figure.

2. If you're using Iray, Iray compression might be compressing the textures, there's settings for that in Daz.

3. Helps to render at twice the resolution, scale down the image later and sharpen in PS. A sharpen in PS alone of any Iray render does often wonders already.

 

At the end of the day, a pixel of your final render or your screen can only display the information of 1 pixel of a character's texture, meaning that if a character is using roughly 3000x3000 pixels for the face texture, that's about the size in pixels you can render the face at, before it starts to look low res.

So, if you're rendering a portrait that includes head and shoulders at 2500x2500 pixels, a well made head texture of about 1800x1800 pixels should fully suffice. Anything beyond that and you already have more texture resolution than your render can display.
On the other hand, if you're rendering a close up of the eye alone at 2500x2500 pixels, then you'd need a head texture where the eyelids area alone covers those 2500x2500 pixels... meaning the whole head would use a... I don't know ~20000x20000 texture ?

In short, Daz figures use 4k textures for the head, accounting for wasted texture space etc, it means you can render heads/faces at maybe 3k resolution before resolution issues start showing.
If you're not pushing things to that extent and already have issues, then it's probably because of 1 of the above mentioned reasons.

I wouldn't obsess over texel density because that's really just the size of the UV chunks which at least for Daz's own characters is always consistent and well done. It could only be an issue if a vendor changes the UV layout for their custom character, but given that they have Daz's UV as a base to work with, it seems silly that they would change anything, unless the character is completely different (like converting a genesis figure into a teddy bear and such).

Hope that's not too confusing...

 

RexRed

Strangefate said:

@RexRed - Daz characters already have about twice the texel density on the face compared to the rest of the body which is the same as using about twice the texture size as the torso, arms etc.

There's probably several reasons why porttrait renders might not look great.

1. Textures might have decent resolution but be have flat specular or bumpmap information. I see that on a lot of figure promos on the store, which makes the figures seem to have less resolution than they have as the speculars and bumps doesn't follow and accentuate the skin details. This can be an issue with the gloss or bump maps alone, or both, depends of the figure.

2. If you're using Iray, Iray compression might be compressing the textures, there's settings for that in Daz.

3. Helps to render at twice the resolution, scale down the image later and sharpen in PS. A sharpen in PS alone of any Iray render does often wonders already.

 

At the end of the day, a pixel of your final render or your screen can only display the information of 1 pixel of a character's texture, meaning that if a character is using roughly 3000x3000 pixels for the face texture, that's about the size in pixels you can render the face at, before it starts to look low res.

So, if you're rendering a portrait that includes head and shoulders at 2500x2500 pixels, a well made head texture of about 1800x1800 pixels should fully suffice. Anything beyond that and you already have more texture resolution than your render can display.
On the other hand, if you're rendering a close up of the eye alone at 2500x2500 pixels, then you'd need a head texture where the eyelids area alone covers those 2500x2500 pixels... meaning the whole head would use a... I don't know ~20000x20000 texture ?

In short, Daz figures use 4k textures for the head, accounting for wasted texture space etc, it means you can render heads/faces at maybe 3k resolution before resolution issues start showing.
If you're not pushing things to that extent and already have issues, then it's probably because of 1 of the above mentioned reasons.

I wouldn't obsess over texel density because that's really just the size of the UV chunks which at least for Daz's own characters is always consistent and well done. It could only be an issue if a vendor changes the UV layout for their custom character, but given that they have Daz's UV as a base to work with, it seems silly that they would change anything, unless the character is completely different (like converting a genesis figure into a teddy bear and such).

Hope that's not too confusing...

 

Hello Strangefate!

Your post is very well articulated.

What a massively helpful post!

I too have noticed the really low-quality promo images.

I need to study your post because it is rich and full of a ton of info there.

Especially the part about Daz compressing the textures. I know Daz does compress textures in the render settings but sometimes I just don't think about that enough.

I think I also read somewhere that even if you have the setting to not compress textures sometimes Daz will compress them regardless if CPU rendering is not enabled just to make the scene fit in the video ram. I am not sure if this is true or not. 

I guess a good way to know is simply open the texture maps in Photoshop and zoom in on them. How defined are the pores? 

Honestly, this is something I have never done before.

It is worth looking into for reference purposes.

Thanks for your very inciteful post!