Simple Lighting vs skin 'Shaders' for a noob?

ZarconDeeGrissom

I just stumbled onto a readme html that came installed on my computer (not the Daz Website) with 'Helena for V4'. In it, it talks briefly about something I've been wrestling with for two months now.

I'm still trying to get the knack of simple lights, so the obber light stuff is way over my head right now.

Either the skin has texture and the scene is incredibly dark, or things are on the brighter side and the figure looks like a plastic kids doll. I've moved past just three-point lights to over five (all set to less then 50% brightness), to attempt to remedy that (and to illuminate the whole scene).

Is this what I've been experiencing as described in that read me, or am I still way off in left field?

(snip-it) Helena's shaders will react strongly to very bright lights so you have to be careful when using very bright global lighting or IBL lights. I don't recommend them anyway when using a character with shaders as it ruins the whole effect a shader is supposed to have and makes the texture appear unnaturally flat and lifeless. (End of snip-it)

I understand less then half of that. What is "bright global lighting"?

(EDIT)
a note, this is for Daz Studio that I am using, the rest of that section seams to be discussing light settings for Poser that I don't have. I forgot to put that in.

Khory

Are you rendering in DAZ studio or Poser? Based on the snip you posted I would say she is poser ready but possibly not DAZ Studio ready. How brightly lit a character can take depends on a really wide variety of things. In studio I would not say so much the base shader used (default, ubershader, Age of Armour Subsurface shader) but far more on the levels that have been set for specularity and how pale the base skin texture is.

Light levels are also rather different between studio and poser and people tend to work differently setting them up. So it will be easier to help if we know which program your using.

Khory

Now you tell me!

I don't have the character your talking about but often when your getting "plastic" people then there are no proper studio settings. It is not so much do to lighting as the surfaces being lit. Go to your surface tab and see if there are bump maps for the skin and if there are then perhaps the settings are too low. If the strength is something like 2% then odds are high you need to raise them closer to 100. Also look to see if there is a specularity map in place as the lack of those can also cause plastic people syndrome.

ZarconDeeGrissom

I must have put the edit in, just as you were typing that, sorry. Using Studio 4.6 pro. The issue has cropped up with many figures Genesis (1) and Genesis 2 based (I have yet to get to any of the V4.2 stuff yet).

fixmypcmike

Just to confirm, are you installing the PoserCF's? If so, are you loading the characters from DAZ Studio Formats or Poser Formats?

ZarconDeeGrissom

not even that advanced (poser vs studio formats), Smart content thing was used.

examples some may have. Victoria 6 (just Victoria no add on figure), Wachiwi (arms look good, face and hands go plastic sometimes), Barefoot-dancer, and that Fiery Genesis. There are many others.

(edit)
Wachiwi on G2F base...

ZarconDeeGrissom

Khory, That was an interesting hint with the bump-map settings. The negative and positive numbers do look low compared to the 'Displacement Maps' I've used elsewhere for Roman floor mosaics (-0.2 & 0.2 at 100%).

I have a vague understanding of the difference between Bump (Light-trick) vs Displacement (real polygons) maps, is that the only difference? Do the min/max numbers equal the same effect amount?

Jaderail

Many textures for figures that do not come pre set up with a shader like SSS or USS often default to the old Plastic Lighting Model on load. That is a setting in the Surfaces tab and needs to be switched to Skin at the minimum.

ZarconDeeGrissom

I had noticed that Jaderail, and thought it was supposed to be that way for the figure... (edit, UV set or lighting model, or both?.)

Am I even looking at the correct hand surface settings? there are many [chin drop emoticon missing]

ZarconDeeGrissom

switching figures, she is way over my head...
(edit)
Some of her parts are Plastic, Nails are gloss plastic, some have ???blank???, and others have metallic. and there different for each of the templates/etc.

As for Fiery Genesis (Genesis 1), there is only one hand category to mess with the surfaces of.

for the hand, I don't see a lighting mode under hand, just a UV set (Victoria 4)

Khory

Let me give you a suggestion for a "simple" fix that often help dramatically. First you need a character texture that you like when it renders. For me that would be one of the ones that uses the Age of Armour Subsurface shader but some of the ones that use the uber shader are good as well. Which one you like and the shader used isn't that important. Now, apply the character your NOT liking. Then go to the character you do like. Hold down the ctrl key (If your on windows) and then apply the character you like. Your going to get a pop up box and the second drop down is images: with the option to replace or ignore. Change it to ignore and click accept. Now the character will have all the settings from the one you like but will still have the same skin texture. Sometimes that is all you need to do to get a good render (if all the maps are in fact there which is sadly not always the case with characters created for poser).

ZarconDeeGrissom

Like this one?
http://www.daz3d.com/subsurface-shader-base
("O", gray purchase button, lol. I did it again Jad, lol.)

I need to read that again, you lost me there somewhere, I think...

Jaderail

UV sets are who the Texture was made for, so a V4 texture on Genesis needs set to V4 but that is automatic M4 is built in to but you must set the UV to a M4 texture by hand after you load it on Genesis. And as I noted above not All textures have that in them. Many use a Shader on load and bypass the lighting model those list the Shader in use at the top of the Surfaces Bar. When that Bar says Shader: Daz Studio Default is when you need to check the Lighting Model most of the time, but not always.

ZarconDeeGrissom

Now, apply the character your NOT liking.

Then go to the character you do like. Hold down the ctrl key (If your on windows) and then apply the character you like.

(Just materials?)

Khory

Just materials.. Honest I know this is all so overwhelming right now. But once you do this stuff you go "ohhh" and it gets easier. I remember when I first started I felt like everyone was speaking a language that I almost but not quite understood.

ZarconDeeGrissom

thanks, the skin-tone did change in the view-field. I never got asked that 'ignore' thing???

I think it changed everything surface wise, was it supposed to do that or just the subsurface? (I don't know, just asking)

Khory

Should have changed everything but the texture maps. As you get use to all of this your going to get more comfortable doing "fixes" and making little tweeks to get the final look you really want. But for now this is a fast and easy way to get improved settings on characters.

Herald of Fire

The item you clicked on was actually a figure, not a material setting. In that instance, it will overwrite all of the shader settings and you won't get the option to apply only the maps. To find the material settings for that figure, look under the "Materials" section of Smart Content. For female figures this is often under Materials > Feminine > Name of Character.

Once you've found it, click on the material with the CTRL key held and you will have the option to ignore maps.

ZarconDeeGrissom

I never set that set to 0.1 shadow depth on the lights, it was from almost two months ago. oops.
That actually made the plastic look effect worse???

Also, the Specularity %. is that like the gloss (lower % is more effect) or is it like reflection strength (higher % is more effect)?
For Wachiwi it was 80%, for Genesis (1) it is at 50% by default?

Khory

Gloss is how broad the specularity is. Lower means a wider and high means more narrow. How much you need and the sort of settings you need depends at least somewhat on how the maps were done for specularity. A higher/sharper gloss will make things look plastic. To wide and people look sort of odd as well. If the specularity is too low then the person will look "flat" and to high they start to look a bit plastic again.

ZarconDeeGrissom

we doubled HeraldOfFire, lol.

O.K. like this. Addison just happened to be right there in the smart tab.

the pupils in the eyes just went white from that, lol.

Khory

easy fix.. to to the surface tab..Find the pupil an then go-

1-go to diffuse and change the color to black
2- be sure that spectacular is set black and 0/off

ZarconDeeGrissom

I'll do that eye fix now...

Also on the Specularity. That sounds like it is effected by light 'Shadow Bios' to some degree, it would explain some things?

Fix the clothing shadows, and get more plastic.

ZarconDeeGrissom

I recognize these settings under (Cornea), it is a fresh brand new "Primitive" with nothing set... Easy fix, if applying a new set of eyes dose not do the trick... Reset the scene to the last 'Save Point', and try again, lol.

ZarconDeeGrissom

reset the scene as new eyes didn't fix the white film effect.

trying to 'select' what gets replaced. or is there a simpler way?

ZarconDeeGrissom

Fw Yasmin was a mistake. or not.
Her bump-map strength was set to only 29% (-0.00, +0.012)...

Khory

I suspect the white film is the eye surface and it simply needs to be made 100 percent transparent.

If you select replace then everything including the surface textures gets changed as well.

Khory

Oh and the shadow bias has to do with adjusting the angle a shadow hits. Sometimes you get funny shadows on clothes and so forth and adjusting the bias can help with that.

ZarconDeeGrissom

so the shadow bias dose nothing to hurt skin texture, one possible goof off the list then.

What is the possibility that the figure came with a bump map, yet there is no texture there to begin with?
I just incrementally cranked the bump-map on the face up to (edit -0.00 & +0.12) at 120%, and still no texture in the preview-cam-render-thing.
That would make a massive tile-floor grout-grove-depth compared to skin texture (whatever the tiny groves are called, like finger prints), and dimples akin to ant-hills. lol

or is bump-maps that far different from displacement maps?

I have a full fledged (1200x900) render going right now to see if I went to far.

ZarconDeeGrissom

Well that did it for Fw Yasmin (Genesis 1).
Bump-map adjustments (Ignore nails and eyes)
Lips; from 10% up to 25%, leave the rest alone for the mouth.
rest of body skin surfaces (face head arms feet hands etc)
100%, -0.1, +0.1

Presto. Now for the I lost count how many other figures.

I still have doubts as to my scene light settings.
(edit)
100%, +0.2, -0.2 for the legs and feet.

Jaderail

Zarcon my friend with a very large need to know, which I find very refreshing as many just say its broke and give up, when it comes to Skin textures, shaders used on skin textures, the lighting used in that render on that or those Shaders/Textures you just need to get very used to adjusting things for almost every render. There really is no one setting that is going to be right in every setup you can do. Often just adding one more light to your scene will require us users to go back and edit the Texture surfaces just a bit. You can find a happy middle ground as was suggested, a setting you like on one texture for example and work from there each time. I personally go the other way.

My method of a Full render, I do many fast I do not try renders they do not count, works like this...
Build figure fully first, texture, shaping, clothing, hair and any parented props.. test pose.
Build Scene itself, I often build my scenes in a cone shape, if in camera view or not, the V idea here...
The bottom of the V being my camera's lens and the wings the width of my camera View so a cone or V...
I now set up my lighting and test render at a low quality to test shadows and light intensity...
I now finish my lighting as much as possible knowing a posed figure may need some lights moved...
I test render at a higher quality, if happy I now finish my posing and test render at Render Quality with the spot Render tool...
Now and not before I edit my figures Texture surface settings. Why now? Most times much of the figure is now covered with clothing
and I do not need to bother with parts that will not show in the finished render. This works for me...
You should come up with a workflow that works for you as you use the Program more but the Tip of only editing at the end and only the texture areas that will be in the render will save you much time and speed you to a quality finished render.