esha's new Foreground Blends only appear in renders (???)

fastbike1

@Blind Owl "As an aside: with a 16K HDRI loaded, DS 4.11's Iray preview mode is at least 10X faster on my system than 4.10's, which helps a lot."

I'll have to give that a try. As I said, I don't typically use Iray Preview because it didn't seem to offer an advantage.

I don't think it's necessarily your work habits. I do the same thing, just with quick renders (just enough to see the scene). I think it's pretty much the nature of the beast. 

FWIW, have you compared renders between a 16K and an 8K version of the same HDR?. I'm skeptical that there is a notable differerence. I guess I'll try that myself (typically use 8k).

Blind Owl

Well, for my on-again-on-again WIP graphic novel I've been rendering at 1920 X 1080, and sometimes at 4K intending to downsize after a bit of post-processing. Not being a big fan of DOF effects, I like the environment to look as sharp and crisp as possible. For my purposes at least, there's a big difference between 8K and 16K.

nicstt

Looking at this, It's important to set the ground with a texture; and then to ensure it is set to Ground Render On under Mat Settings

There are two sliders (I prefer these to clickin on buttons), they are PS Hairs Density (cm^2) and Additional PR Hairs Density (cm^2); these seem to make a difference on the amount of grass you see.

Not sure yet, what I've missed on the two patches of grass that are circled in the image. It does render quickly though, on my 980ti; although subjective statements are hard to judge, I was expecting it to take longer than the couple or so minutes it took.

Edit: also with ground, ensure the cutout opacity is set appropriately; a white or patchy grey/white texture and a value above zero

The second image shows the results of ensuring said opacity and a texture applied to the ground. I also messed around with random length.

Blind Owl

nicstt said:

Looking at this, It's important to set the ground with a texture; and then to ensure it is set to Ground Render On under Mat Settings

There are two sliders (I prefer these to clickin on buttons), they are PS Hairs Density (cm^2) and Additional PR Hairs Density (cm^2); these seem to make a difference on the amount of grass you see.

Not sure yet, what I've missed on the two patches of grass that are circled in the image. It does render quickly though, on my 980ti; although subjective statements are hard to judge, I was expecting it to take longer than the couple or so minutes it took.

Edit: also with ground, ensure the cutout opacity is set appropriately; a white or patchy grey/white texture and a value above zero

The second image shows the results of ensuring said opacity and a texture applied to the ground. I also messed around with random length.

Thanks, nicstt. This is really useful to know, but it should have been covered in the (nonexistent) user manual. I'm still debating whether or not to return it due to lack of much-needed documentation and seemingly arbitrary labelling. *sigh* I guess a support ticket is in order...

nicstt

Welcome.

It is also possible, that one wont want the ground on as the grass is being added to an HDRI to give it 'body'. :)

MelissaGT

Richard Haseltine said:

fastbike1 said:

@melissastjames

There is a preview setting in the Strand Hair settings

Specifically, Preview PR Hairs

Unfortunately, I'm not seeing that option - 

Richard Haseltine said:

For dForce, rather than Strand Based, hair Generate PR Hairs and preview PR Hairs are in the Simulation group just up from the Tessellation group (both need to be On). You will also need to increase the tessellation values, Viewport Line Tessellation Sides must be at least 2

Thank you! This worked!

One issue I'm having, though, is whenever I reload the scene, the grass loses its simulation. This happens even when "freeze simulation" is checked. Is this something that is just part of the strand-based hair system? Am I able to export the grass out to .obj once I'm done with the simulation so I can reload the scene with less frustration? I'm kind of juggling several complex objects to simulate into the grass (a sword, two figures, and dForce hair) so resimulating all the time is definitely a pita. 

Here is a quick n' dirty viewport screenshot of part of the scene I'm working on - 

AprilYSH

melissastjames said:

resimulating all the time is definitely a pita. 

Here is a quick n' dirty viewport screenshot of part of the scene I'm working on - 

Nice screenshot render :)

Having to resimule a saved scene - not about esha's grass, I have had the same issue with hair I was working on - MOST of the time I do not have to resimulate after reloading.  One time I did have to and have not figured out why.  It was the same model in other scenes that reloaded fine.  I have yet to recreate it and isolate the issue.

In your scene, do you have multiple dforce items?  If so, try to isolate which item it is that is not saving simulated?  Can you duplicate it every time? 

MelissaGT

AprilYSH said:

melissastjames said:

resimulating all the time is definitely a pita. 

Here is a quick n' dirty viewport screenshot of part of the scene I'm working on - 

Nice screenshot render :)

Having to resimule a saved scene - not about esha's grass, I have had the same issue with hair I was working on - MOST of the time I do not have to resimulate after reloading.  One time I did have to and have not figured out why.  It was the same model in other scenes that reloaded fine.  I have yet to recreate it and isolate the issue.

In your scene, do you have multiple dforce items?  If so, try to isolate which item it is that is not saving simulated?  Can you duplicate it every time? 

Thank you! I heard a depressing song and decided to go and test the grass on a depressing scene, lol.

Yes, I can duplicate the issue every time. The only item that is losing its simulation is the strand hair-based grass.

bicc39

What is the secret password to get it to work?

MelissaGT

My only issue with this product is that each time I reload the scene, the grass loses its simulation. Nothing else in the scene does, and this has never happened to me before the release of strand hair. So I'm still at a loss, wondering if the issue is specific to this product, or is an issue with strand-based hair itself. 

AprilYSH

melissastjames said:

My only issue with this product is that each time I reload the scene, the grass loses its simulation. Nothing else in the scene does, and this has never happened to me before the release of strand hair. So I'm still at a loss, wondering if the issue is specific to this product, or is an issue with strand-based hair itself. 

I think it's a dforce loading issue (agree, not specific to this product.)  I saved my scene and decompressed it (using Batch Convert pane) to check for "simulation_data" line and it's there.  Reloaded the scene and it's NOT simulated (and of course resaving it and decompressing it again shows no "simulation_data" lines.)  I'm gonna email Daz about this.  Feel free to submit a ticket too.  :)

bicc39, what was your issue with the grass? That's a shame, esha is one of the most fastidious vendors I know of.  Did customer support try to replicate your issue? I wonder if esha got a heads up... I'll send her a message.  :)

barbult

I submitted a help request asking for instructions. Customer Service submitted it as a feature request. Maybe AprilYSH can get esha to join this thread to help us. esha is usually very helpful. I hope she isn't sick or something.

MelissaGT

AprilYSH said:

melissastjames said:

My only issue with this product is that each time I reload the scene, the grass loses its simulation. Nothing else in the scene does, and this has never happened to me before the release of strand hair. So I'm still at a loss, wondering if the issue is specific to this product, or is an issue with strand-based hair itself. 

I think it's a dforce loading issue (agree, not specific to this product.)  I saved my scene and decompressed it (using Batch Convert pane) to check for "simulation_data" line and it's there.  Reloaded the scene and it's NOT simulated (and of course resaving it and decompressing it again shows no "simulation_data" lines.)  I'm gonna email Daz about this.  Feel free to submit a ticket too.  :)

Thank you! At least I know I'm not crazy and it's not a problem limited to just me. 

Martinjfrost

Blind Owl said:

Richard Haseltine said:

Preview PR Hairs is I think the setting needed.

You'd think so, but that was one of the first things I tried and it doesn't work. I wonder if this is an oversight on the PA's part and if it can be corrected.

And the documentation really needs to be improved. For instance, what are "H Material(s)" and why does clicking on them produce an error message? How are they supposed to be used? Why does changing the density have no visible effect, whether in the view port or in a render? How do we achieve the effects shown in the promos?

I totally agree with this, I think with products like this, some sort of step by step should be included. I have not had much time to play with this or any of the strand based hairs yet, but the utter lack of tutorials or vidios about them seems really strange for such a powerful new tool. 

Martinjfrost

Martinjfrost said:

Blind Owl said:

Richard Haseltine said:

Preview PR Hairs is I think the setting needed.

You'd think so, but that was one of the first things I tried and it doesn't work. I wonder if this is an oversight on the PA's part and if it can be corrected.

And the documentation really needs to be improved. For instance, what are "H Material(s)" and why does clicking on them produce an error message? How are they supposed to be used? Why does changing the density have no visible effect, whether in the view port or in a render? How do we achieve the effects shown in the promos?

I totally agree with this, I think with products like this, some sort of step by step should be included. I have not had much time to play with this or any of the strand based hairs yet, but the utter lack of tutorials or vidios about them seems really strange for such a powerful new tool. 

PS if there are tutorials and vids some where Id love for someone to post the link! ;-)

barbult

I think I'll have to return this.  I only have a day or two to decide.

When I load props from the 2 Squares, 3 Circles, 4 Patches folders, I can never get the Mat Grass settings for the lengths, density, or extra density presets to work. I see changes in the surface parameters, but the render doesn't change at all (real Iray render, not Iray preview). I don't even know how these items are supposed to work, because there are no instructions with this product and I can't find any general documentation on the dForce "hair". I could get something to work with the 1 Blend Groups, but what are the rest of the props and materials for, if they don't work?

The simulation always has poke through for me, because the grass isn't really flattened. It just kind of bends over with spiky elbows poking up.

I consider myself a pretty savvy Daz Studio user, and I don't give up easily. My troubles could all be user error, but this seems hopeless without instructions. My help request yielded no help. I'm so sad. 

Blind Owl

barbult said:

I think I'll have to return this.  I only have a day or two to decide.

When I load props from the 2 Squares, 3 Circles, 4 Patches folders, I can never get the Mat Grass settings for the lengths, density, or extra density presets to work. I see changes in the surface parameters, but the render doesn't change at all (real Iray render, not Iray preview). I don't even know how these items are supposed to work, because there are no instructions with this product and I can't find any general documentation on the dForce "hair". I could get something to work with the 1 Blend Groups, but what are the rest of the props and materials for, if they don't work?

The simulation always has poke through for me, because the grass isn't really flattened. It just kind of bends over with spiky elbows poking up.

I consider myself a pretty savvy Daz Studio user, and I don't give up easily. My troubles could all be user error, but this seems hopeless without instructions. My help request yielded no help. I'm so sad. 

It's a shame, but without a fairly comprehensive user guide which doesn't seem to be forthcoming, the product as it stands is pretty much useless to me. So I've applied for a refund, hoping that some future product (or a revamped version of Foreground Blends) can do what this one is supposed to do, but with less head-scratching & frustration.

barbult

I submitted a last-ditch, second help request, listing the steps to recreate my problems. If they can help me, great. If they can't, I asked for a refund. esha makes great products. This has been a disappointment. If anyone sees something I am doing wrong, I'd love to be straightened out! (I installed with Daz Connect, if that has anything to do with it.)

To reproduce the problem of many material presets doing nothing: 

1. Open the Content Library. 
2. Go to folder Props/Foreground Blends/ 3 Circles. 
3. Load the prop FGB Grass Circle Falloff Hard. 
4. Do an Iray render of the scene and save the render to a file. 
5. Select Grass Circle Falloff Hard in the Scene pane. 
6. In the Content Library, go to folder Props/Foreground Blends/7 MAT/Mat Grass. 
7. Apply FGB Grass Messy 0. 
8. Do an Iray render of the scene and save the render to a file with a new name. 
9. Compare the render with the previous render and observe that they appear identical. 
10. Apply FGB Grass Extra Density 2. 
11. Do an Iray render of the scene and save the render to a file with a new name. 
12. Compare the render with the previous render and observe that they appear identical. 
13. Apply FGB Grass Density 200. 
14. Do an Iray render of the scene and save the render to a file with a new name. 
15. Compare the render with the previous render and observe that they appear identical. 
16. Apply FGB Grass Length 400. 
17. Do an Iray render of the scene and save the render to a file with a new name. 
18. Compare the render with the previous render and observe that they appear identical. 
19. Apply FGB Grass Random Length 2 
20. Do an Iray render of the scene and save the render to a file with a new name. 
21. Compare the render with the previous render and observe that they appear identical. 

All of the renders are identical. None of the applied material presets did anything at all as far as I can tell. The same problem happens with the props and materials for 2 Squares, 3 Circles, and 4 Patches. 

esha

Hello all,

sorry for getting to this thread so late, I hadn't seen it. Fortunately another PA discovered it and pointed me to it.

First, I'm sorry that you're having problems with it. I tried to make it as user-friendly as possible but it is a new technology, not only for you but also for us PAs, and we need to find out what is the best way to handle it.
Let me address the problems in the order in which they were mentioned in this thread:

 

1) Not rendering in Iray Preview

This is a technical limitation and affects all dForce Hair. To make it render in preview you need to select the grass object, go to the Parameters tab, and set the Render Line Tesselation Sides to 2.
Now it will render in preview, but be aware that this will also slightly change the look of the grassblades.

Note that the PR Hair settings don't have any effect on these grass objects, all the hair is in the PS group. In hindsight I might have set it up a bit differently, although the necessity to change the tesselation would have remained the same.

 

2) Missing documentation

There was supposed to be a User Guide but for some reason it didn't make it into the final zip. I've sent the missing file to support, you will see an update for this product soon (it might even be ready by now).
I'm sincerely sorry about that, and I very much wish I had seen this thread sooner so I could have spared you a lot of frustration.
Just to make sure there won't be any more delays, I'll attach the pdf guide to this post.

 

3) Hierarchical Materials

If you had the user guide this would have been easier. Sorry about that...
By default, a material preset is applied only to the selected object. The big Blend Group presets consist of up to 15 grass objects, so it would be quite painful for users having to select them all to apply a material. That's where the Hierarchical Mats come in, it is enough to select the root object or one of the dependent objects and the mat will apply to all the others, too.

So, for a single object use the regular mats, for the Blend Groups use the hierarchical mats.

 

4) Colliding with other objects

To be honest, I don't know why you are running into problems here. In my various tests and renders it worked fine.
The recommended method is indeed to lift the figure/object up a bit and then let it drop onto the ground. Make sure it doesn't drop all the way down, leave a tiny bit of space between the foot/object and the ground, otherwise DS doesn't know where to move the grass. This also is mentioned in the user guide.

 

5) Losing the simulation data

Unfortunately this happens randomly with all dForce Hair objects. I can't really do anything about it, let's just hope it will be fixed in some future software update.

 

6) The Messy, Length and Density Settings

These settings produce very subtle effects. They're more noticeable on the lawn objects than on the grass objects because the grass is rather messy by default, so adding more messiness doesn't change a lot.
Messy 0 is the default setting, 1 and 2 move the tips of the grass in a way to produce a slightly fuzzy look.

Length and Density should have very noticeable effects, though. You should also be able to see them in the textured preview mode, or any of the other non-Iray modes - the grass will be displayed as simple lines.
It is indeed very weird that they don't seem to change anything for you. I just tested them in the current official version of DS 4.11 (not the public beta) and everything worked fine... *scratches head*

bjoern_4f5f9da48a

I have a problem as well. When adding several of the Lawn Square Falloff Fast presets only 3 of them will render. Is that a technical limitation or is there a way to get them to render?

Loony

maybe someone wanna help me too?

See the attachment, I created 2 planes and made then a lot instances (20), then spreaded it, but it looks like the few right in front are not very visible, I used a big lenght and density and all...

I try to give the set a bit more "life".

But only the few in distance are good visible, is it a problem with perspective?

Edit: I added a preview screenshot.