Creating Morphs Revisited, Again
NotAnArtist
Posts: 384
Please excuse my frustration here, but this has been a bad experience. Recently I posted a question on how to create a morph for changes I made in Hexagon to the geometry of a Millenium character's nose. I was trying to follow a tutorial called “Creating a Single Morph Target or Prop”. I'm limited in my Daz knowledge because I've concentrated on Hexagon.
Following the tute's instructions only led to intense bending in the character's legs when applying the morph, no matter where on the body I experimented with the mesh. I realized the tutorial might be outdated, even for older models, but nobody here offered any suggestions for what might solve my problem.
I wrongly believed that the Millenium products were "simpler" and therefore easier to work with than Genesis, and so someone commented that I should begin with Genesis. But it shouldn't matter where I begin. If different models require different techniques, then I need to learn what suits the model I'm working with. Never-the-less, I've spent a few days now testing a wide variety of models and procedures.
In the process, I found Morph Loader Pro (& Advanced) and associated tutorials. What a mess they are! I tried a multitude of settings in each, using my own simple models - a book, a flamingo, etc, and even a basic cube. They all explode when applying a morph. Same for Millenium Matt, Aiko 4, and Victoria 4.2. Genesis only results in the morph not being generated. A message says "Geometry doesn't match," even when I make NO changes to the mesh at all in Hex.
(By "explode", I'm referring to what the tutorial at http://preta3d.com/tutorial-poser-fbms-with-welded-figures/ supposedly teaches how to avoid). It's a great effect. Ominous. Whole body blows up. But wow, not useful in kids' stories, for example.
I've closely reviewed several tutorials, old and new. I'm dutifully trying to learn all I can, on my own, the manly way. I certainly don't want to ask questions that are simple to find on the internets.
But there's one huge impediment to this rightful approach, isn't there, folks! The Morph Loader Pro interface has changed radically from how it was when even a recent tute was made (the one I gave the link for above). Like many Daz items, the change seems to have just happened. Maybe the DAZ techs aren't even aware of it. Frightening!
So how the heck do do you guys keep up with this stuff when it's a struggle enough just to know what terms to use in your searches? Does any "official" with Daz provide info somewhere that I've missed? Where is it? A manual addendum? Hell, the only manual-based info I've found is from 2009!
I've fought long enough with these dang tutorials. Can someone please guide me to something showing how to deal with the CURRENT interface of Morph Loader Pro, or whatever other process you use? I know how to study. I just need to know what to study!
Note: D-Former is nice, but I prefer the intricate shaping abilities of Hexagon. My goals go beyond Pinocchio noses.
Please don't suggest I try Genesis first if it's such a different technology that it has no relation to the models I prefer to work with (Milleniums, A/H/V 3 & 4, and my own creations). There has to be a way to work on the characters and props that I have purchased or built!
If my search abilities are just weak, I apologize. I've been very successful in 30 years of political and medical research - but maybe those just require a different "talent."
Thanks for any info someone might be able to give. Don't misunderstand my frustration here, I respect your abilities and appreciate your willingness to help people - I'm just losing respect for "DAZ 3D". Big-time!
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Comments
It might help if you gave your current workflow - exploding meshes indicate that the order of the vertices that define the shape has changed, and that shouldn't happen going from DS to Hexagon to DS. How are you exporting your OBJ, or are yous tarting from the OBJ in the Geometries folder? Which presets are you choosing on export, if relevant, and import?
The tutorial you link to is for DAZ Studio 3, hence the changes in the dialogue box layout.
The creation of morphs is the same in Genesis and older figures - but it's easier to save the morphs fro future use with Genesis and other native DAZ Studio content, compared to Poser-format content like Victoria 4.
Thanks, Richard. You're always there - I'm amazed at you. I'll probably answer more accurately in a day - something's come up here. But here's an answer from memory because I'm online in Linux right now:
I bring up the character or prop, zero the pose > then File > Export > and save it as an obj file. I check the "Use Bone Welds" option. I open it in Hex and pull a few polygons out from the nose a bit, and then save it as an obj file.
In Daz, I still have the model open, so I call up Morph Loader Pro, and from there it's all hit and miss, because almost nothing in the interface resembles the tutorial. It's so different it's like the program is for a completely different purpose.
I'm sorry I can't remember any more details, so please let me better describe it tomorrow. If there's anything here that catches your attention, I'll really appreciate your comments.
My HUGE question is, how can they change a program's interface so much without any updated instructions? This is driving me crazy, not that that's so hard to do these days. Thanks again!
I tried re-writing the workflow-from-memory I posted last night, and it's clear that I was testing too many different settings at once. In other words, the notes I've taken from that one video and twenty-something web pages are a self-conflicted jumble, and there's no way I can describe for you any one technique I've actually done. Adding Genesis to my attempts only made it more confusing. Picture me sitting here pounding on the table - that's the technique I ended up performing on the buttons on that darn software.
Still, why can't there be an actual tutorial, manual - something straightforward and clear? OK, two manuals, one for Genesis and one for older models... This is ridiculous.
BTW, there's a Documentation Center entry for ML Pro. Lots of pages, but unfilled, except for subject headings. They say "This version (2013/09/26 12:16) is a Draft." There's hope(?)
Also, I just discovered that Poser 9 is on sale for $30. This is something that might better suit me, documentation-wise.
Anyway, if anyone has knowledge that might help to counteract the MESS that exists online in Morph Loader tutorials and discussions, I'm sure I'm not the only person who would benefit from it. Maybe an explanation of what EACH setting's purpose is, so that we can deduce for ourselves what might be proper or not for what we're trying to accomplish. And maybe the same for ML Advanced, as long as it's there, too.
I fear what I'll be facing when I turn to the next Daz module that I need to deal with. And the next. I repeat, this is ridiculous.
I exported the V4 figure as an OBJ, using the modo preset but with Bone Welds set on, tweaked it in Hexagon, exported as OBJ (I unchecked Flip Textures but otherwise sued the default options), imported as a morph with Morph Loader Pro again using the Modo preset, and the morph worked as expected. I then tried using the Hexagon preset with Bone welds left unchecked, tweaked the mesh, imported with MLP using the Hexagon preset and again the morph worked. Pleae havea nother go, noting your option choices, and if it still doesn't work post again.
First mistake is checking bone weld. V4's and M4's body is already one continuous mesh that is divided in to groups. How a program treats the groups will depend on its importer an its settings.
Richard and jestmart: Thank you! Today was hectic, and I've had some business I've put off too long. I'll attack this tomorrow. But I have some info that could help you see what I'm doing wrong.
BTW, one reason I'm feeling so lost is that I'm accumulating too many conflicting notes. It happened again, right here between your two messages. One says bone welds on, the other says off. One said it didn't matter and the other said it matters.
Anyway, I found the notes I used when I tried morphing V4.2 (and Millenium Matt and A4), before I went crazy and started throwing my mouse at every setting I could find. Maybe these will show you what I'm doing wrong. Tomorrow I'll sit down and try again.
I think I'm missing info that I don't know that I'm missing, though. For example, what's the "modo preset"? I don't remember seeing that anywhere.
Procedure:
- In Daz, open V4.2.
- Zero the pose
- Save as a .obj file. Settings were: Convert from Daz Studio to Hexagon, Ignore Invisible Nodes, Use Bone Welds, Write UV, Write Normals, Write Object Statements, Write Groups/Use Node Names, Write Surfaces/Write Material Library/No Maps > Accept.
- Import the obj file in Hexagon > Stretch the nose carefully so as not to hurt her.
- Export her as a new .obj file.
- Back in Daz, with V4.2 still selected, I opened MLpro and got the new V4 obj. The settings there were: Convert to Daz Studio From Hexagon, All Group/Bone Matches in Figure (although I remember trying the other choices, too).
- The rest of the settings I left at default in those first few attempts. I had no clue as to what they were for, and they do not match the interface of the MLpro in the video tutorial I was using at the time.
- Accept > Apply the morph and the poor girl blew up.
OK, thanks again. Tomorrow I'll have a refreshed brain with which to revisit this. Cheers.
I'm not seeing an obvious issue in your listed steps. The modo preset is just an alternative to the Hexagon preset you used in the OBJ export/MLP dialogue. I wouldn't disagree with Jetsmart that leaving welds off is more reliable, but I didn't find that it caused an issue when i had it on.
The bone weld shouldn't have any affect as the mesh isn't split at the groups, but shouldn't isn't the same as doesn't. My experience has been, as Mr Haseltine suggests, is leaving it unchecked is more reliable. The same is true of the write group options, I found Use Node Names was more reliable than Use Existing Groups with V4 and M4 but the opposite is true for Genesis, it shouldn't matter but it does. As for scale stick with Custom 100% for both exporting and importing and don't mess with the axis options. I use Blender as my modelling program so can't help with Hexagon settings.
Here's a word I wasn't expecting: Success!
I used V4.2 to repeat Haseltine's test, exporting from Daz with and without "Use Bone Welds", both resulting in the mesh exploding when the morph was applied. I then hid every body part except the head itself, and the eventual morph resulted in an explosion, but only the head.
In MLpro, I tried various different settings. For "Group Bone Matches", no morph was created at all. For "Reverse Deformations", she explodes. For ERC[Divide Into], V4 disappeared from the scene, even though the Scene tab showed her selected. A Morph slider was created, though.
At that point I realized the problem must be created earlier, but not so early as when I export it from Daz. That meant there was something I'm doing wrong in Hexagon.
So when I exported from Hexagon, I unchecked all the checked boxes in the Save As dialogue (Export UVs, Export normals, Merge equal points, Merge equal uvs, Merge equal normals, flip textures - and I left the rest unchecked as they were by default).
Success ensued. Repeating with Millenium Matt, also success, except the pupils of his eyes grow and shrink with the morph. Hiding them when I export, though, solved that problem.
If Hexagon's "flip textures" was the guilty setting, I don't see the connection. Could someone explain it? Nor do I see a connection with the UVs or normals or equal uvs settings.
Was it "Merge equal points"? I haven't tested it yet because I was so happy by then, that I shut down my Win7 machine to fire up Linux and report my good news to you. Now I'm gonna have a strong capuccino to get rid of a different headache, my literal headache.
Sorry about my frustration. I just miss textbooks and step-by-step organized instructions.
And I'll stick with DAZ, not Poser. This much effort deserves trodding forward, not starting over. Thanks again everyone. Maybe someday if I live long enough, I'll write those missing DAZ and Hexagon textbooks.
Yes, I would expect merge equal points - if there were any - to be the problem as it would change the points (vertices) in the mesh, and it's vertex count and order that is critical for a morph.
Yes, the problem was the Merge Equal Points setting. I tested this morning in various situations, when importing into Hexagon, and when exporting out. Consistantly, the exploding morphs occured only when exporting from Hex with the Merge Equal Points setting checked. I also noticed that MLpro took longer to process the morph in those cases where it was destined to explode.
For some reason, Hex has put stray vertices into my work quite often, sometimes even a little group of four vertices. I wonder if this is related. I thought it was only with the more complex things I've tried to accomplish, though, not just simply stretching a few polygons forward a bit for a Pinochio effect.
But that's another chapter for another time and another forum. Thanks again, everyone. I think this problem has been resolved!!!
Ahem... P.S. -
Though, shouldn't merging extra points remove a problem, instead of creating one? Arghh, that's ok. I'll study that later. Have a good weekend!
No, because merging points (assuming, of course, that you neither added or removed points in Hexagon) will change the mesh - any change, other than of position in space, is highly likely to break the morph
Gotcha. Except setting it to merge equal points when importing into Hex didn't cause the morph problem, only setting it to merge points on export from Hex. I'd think either way would change the mesh, so either should have broken the morph.
Of course, if I'm the only one experiencing the problem in the first place, it could be something uniquely broken in my installation that wouldn't relate to anyone else. For that I feel a bit guilty for taking so much time here. So until I have another question, or someday an answer for someone else, bye for now!