WAYYY OT: Curiosity Strikes
eclark1849
Posts: 211
For the record, just so I can point it out as the first thing I said in this thread. Under normal circumstances I do not believe in ever striking a woman, unless you're another woman, of course. So that said, I have a question about when is it okay for a man to strike a woman? And I mean, lay her out.
I was watching one of my favorite old Westerns, the Wild Wild West, and if you've ever seen the Intros to the show you know that early on, the Cartoon version of West would go through several situations. One of them included a woman, who would kiss him, and then you see her raise a Knife and just as she is about to stab him to death, West bops her one and lays her out. That got changed over time where she would still be about to stab him. but instead of hitting her, West would kiss her and she'd just sort of forget all about killing him. That also reminded me of shows like the Honeymooners, where Ralph would get upset with Alice and tell her "One of these Days, Pow! To the moon, Alice."!
Well, that got me to wondering, if it is ever permissable for a man to hit a woman? As I said, for me, under normal circumstances, I say no, but then again, if a woman is coming after me with a knife or a gun trying to kill me, then I gotta say knock her @$$ out and deal with the consequences when it's all over.
Some of you know I love to ask these questions, so what's your answer?
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I'd be asking myself why a woman would be coming at me with a knife trying to kill me if I were you!
That's one of those questions that would have to wait until she was no longer coming after me.:-)
Found the Show intro here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLkVvlhy9_k[
Oh boy. You're about to poke a big hornet's nest with this thing, one way or another. If I could, I would live in this happy magical land where no one hits anyone, but I don't, so I have to work with what I got; it is not cool for a woman to hit woman, for that matter. I should note before I proceed that I'm a cis female, who openly identifies as bisexual; my background is rooted in lower working class of my country, currently living lower end of middle-class life, and I'm a member of cultural majority. It is not a cultural norm for my generation of women to fight or show aggressive behavior, but my family brought me up with the attitude "if someone hits you, you're allowed to hit them back". So this is likely to color my point of view.
I operate on this flowchart of principle, no matter who is doing it, man, woman or child:
1) Who instigated the attack? If I did (be it with really verifiable words or actions, not just "I exist, therefore I deserve ass-kicking"), I cannot claim a moral high ground.
2) Am I stronger/bigger side of the beating that's about to commence? If this is so, do I have some other form of self-defense I can apply before I swing my fist?
3) Is the other person operating under diminished capacity? Drunk? Drugged? Mentally or physically ill?
4) Is the other person (who has failed the first three checks) coming at me armed or unarmed? If unarmed, am I able to subdue them in some manner that doesn't involve hitting? Am I able to go away? If armed, am I able to remove myself from the scene, so no one is hurt? If armed, are they armed with something that is easy to take away, or unwieldy to use?
Example: a little girl is furious because I said that Rainbow Dash is the best pony, and she thinks it is Pinkie Pie. In a fit of brony anger and sugar-high, she charges at me, while dual-wielding two Pinkie Pie toys (completely against the principle of love, tolerance and friendship). Yeah, no. Don't.
Example: I am facing a highly-trained ninja kunoichi, armed with a katana and ninja-to. She is coming at me like an enraged sabretooth tiger, no matter how I try to defuse the situation with words, and I got nowhere to run. I am absolutely sure that no one would judge people for hitting her, man or woman.
And then there's the whole spectrum in between; it really is a question of balance, and the way things are geared in society. A hefty dose of it is cultural too, and prevalence of kyriachy. (If these terms seem strange, I recommend to check Wikipedia.)
Note: the example of "kiss her to change her mind" is very problematic as well. If she had a reason (as flimsy as that reason might be) to come at someone with a knife, I think that after the kiss she would just have better reasons to continue doing it; contrary to romcom opinion, unwanted sexual advances continue being unwanted.
PS: there's always 5) If she consents, and everything is done under "Safe, Sane, and Consensual" rules and safewords are obeyed.
That's one of those questions that would have to wait until she was no longer coming after me.:-)
well it also depends on if you KNOW the reason!
ie she is your wife who caught you screwing your babysitter and you know for certain she is gonna cut off your willy!
Frankly, I think you're over thinking it a bit, but let me just say that I don't think anyone should be hitting anyone either. That said, I know the "real" world doesn't work like that.
I think it's hypocritical, for example, that men are forbidden to "EVER" hit a woman (at least in the U.S.) but women are not only "allowed" to hit men, it many cases they're actually encouraged to do so.
well it also depends on if you KNOW the reason!
ie she is your wife who caught you screwing your babysitter and you know for certain she is gonna cut off your willy!
NO ONE cuts off my Willy!:coolgrin:
When you're both hiding in the closet because there's an axe murderer in the house, and she starts whining.
This is because (your) culture and society places men and women to different slots, and assigns them different values; women, as a whole, have been delegated to "dainty and fragile" category, even when it is not true. I come from a different culture, and possibly different social class, where women are regarded "just as capable as men, and if they're not stronger, they'll work harder"; in my case, my roots are in agricultural society where you haul that cow out of bog, or there won't be milk and meat come next winter, and everyone is expected to muck the cowshed and carry bales of hay.
Even so, when it is acceptable to hit someone depends on many things. There is no way I can give a blanket "okay, go to town" permission or recommendation to do so, be the target a man or woman.
I have hit a man. I did that as self-defense, as he failed my checklist of "when it is acceptable to hit someone", so I did. I did not injure him, but I made a fool out of him in front of people, and made it clear that what he was about to do was not ok and if he keeps pressing the issue, it will go poorly for him. Let's see what the checklist says:
1) I did not instigate the attack. I was merely present (the only woman currently present at a LAN party, in a crowd of 100 or so), and giving no signals that I would like him to approach me. How do I know? Because I was sleeping. With my nerd clothes (plain black t-shirt, jeans) on. In a sleeping bag. I woke up to his lurching steps and drunken bellowing (wasn't the only one -- since it was the designated sleeping area).
2) He was about one and half times the size of me. Further, I was 16, he was about 20+.
3) He was drunk, stinking to high heavens. Earlier that day, he and his demo crew had been blasting pornographic content on their computers' screens and harassing other women at the LAN party.
4) He ignored my verbal and non-verbal clues that I do not want his attention in any manner and I cannot currently retreat. Further, he was doing the grabby hands as he approached, which was pretty much all I needed to know what he wanted to do.
It was a quick jab to his shoulder with a fist, enough to sting, but not injure. And, enough to embarrass him in front of the waking crowd, and make him go away. Would be nice if I could say that was the end of it. But at least their next spate of harassment was a set of whiny self-made posters calling women sluts (the logic of this still escapes me) rather than actual attempt at physical harrassment.
Does this help visualizing the problem at all? You can't say "always OK to hit when X". It depends. I agree that the idea "never, ever, ever!" is bull****. But there are reasons why your culture insists so, and it is for the best to start unpacking it from there: ask why it insists on that.
If you're defending your life and/or appendage, yes and do it without fatally wounding her, if at all possible. This goes for both men and woman. The key to this is defense of your life or that of someone else.
When is it all right to hit woman?
When you are legally obliged to do so.
Let me clarify that, in the UK (and across most of Europe) we have numerous bits of equality legislation that do not allow you to discriminate against anybody based on their age, sex, sexual orientation, ethnic background etc. Any form of discrimination covered by the various laws is simply illegal.
Therefore it follows that if you are in a situation where you would feel that you need (for whatever reason) to hit a man then if the same situation were to arise with a woman as the protagonist instead of a man you are legally obliged to hit the woman in question. If you did not hit her then you would have committed an illegal act of discrimination because you have treated her different to a man in the same situation.
So you find your self in court, as the defendant, for letting woman cut off your willy :exclaim:
Please take this a seriously as you want to and do not under any circumstances rely on the above as your defence in any form of court proceedings.
I always think its interesting that women getting hit gets all sorts of attention. They go after abusive husbands and boyfriend with torches and pitchforks ( as they should). But there is an interesting little bit of info here. In the USA, domestic violence is 75 times more likely to be woman on man than man on woman. But nooooo one ever mentions the wives who beat on their husbands. A big problem with women beating men, as men we are taught that it is never ok to hit a woman, so when a woman attacks us, most of us do nothing to defend our selves. Another thing that often happens is after getting beat on for half an hour the man finally has enough and pops her one, then he goes to jail for domestic violence ( I have seen that happen a lot).
I think I'd be an equal opportunity hitter if it came down to that but luckily I have never had to hit anyone. However having observed a few nasty situations where woman has been the offender I feel that not being allowed to hit a woman is BS. Sure it's better if you have skills and strength to restrain them but that's not always the case.
I've seen a woman knee a guy into delicates just because she got mad. I've seen woman hit a guy with bottle (hospital trip) because he was not paying attention to her, and I've seen woman drop guy with a single hit to face.
Even if a woman has not built strength through any sort of manual labor or exercise a shot from elbow or knee is capable of doing serious damage. More so if the height and weight difference is not that big - or in woman's advantage. I think it's funny how women are often portrayed as delicate snowflakes whose "fighting" consists of movie like hissy scratching or a slap to cheek.
Personally I feel intimidated by aggressive women and I'm not ashamed to say it. Partially because I'm a relatively small guy who doesn't like fighting or aggressive people in general, partially because I have seen the damage angry women can do in a flash of rage whether they intended it or not, and partially because I have this feeling I'm not even allowed to defend myself without being seen as some sort of vile monster. Hit a woman and you are a monster. Get beaten by a woman and you are pathetic. I think that's how society views it.
It's always a better idea to avoid fights anyway but if you can't avoid one - well, people starting fights should think before they act if they don't want to receive a similar treatment. Just make sure you are not the one starting it.
This reminds me of a time I went to the local pub. There was a guy standing outside bleeding profusely from the head. I had to ask what happened. His girlfriend cut his ear off with a broken beer bottle. Why? She thought he was looking at another woman. So here was a guy holding his ear in one hand, and holding a towel to the side of his head where his ear used to be, standing outside the pub. Where was she? Inside laughing and drinking with her friends like nothing had happened. No joke, she cut his ear off with a broken bottle.
based solely on those circumstances, I'd have taken a bottle right back at her, what a dysfunctional whack job! Even if he had looked at another woman, it's not grounds to use a broken bottle, geez!!
In that situation someone should have called the police so he could press charges and have her arrested. She should definitely pay the price for assault if that applies and battery for sure... and this is the bare minimum. Depends on the circumstances that lead up to her cutting his ear off, but it could also be attempted murder since his ear and jugular are in such close proximity. What exactly was she going for? The jugular, but missed and got his ear? Lots of details are need to know for sure, but she should have gone to jail.
Ho-boy. As a self-defense instructor I think I'll get involved here.
#1 rule: ALWAYS know the laws about retreat before self-defense in the area where you are.
#2 rule: ALWAYS know your surroundings and possible issues involved.
#3 rule: During combat, someone is going to get hurt.
Now, on to the question (reference #1): usually the law does not differentiate between the genders in self-defense situations... however, judges and juries DO. Also, any training that one has WILL be taken into account. The higher level training one has, the more capable of "avoidance" one is expected to be. If one is a "certified expert" (black belt, "master", instructor, etc) then one is expected to "avoid" more than "reasonable" injury to one's opponent.
On to female assaulting male (#1): The law states that the amount of allowable force is proportional to the personal danger involved. So, the amount of allowable force for a knife is less than for a gun. With a gun, gender is usually mitigated as "strength" is not a factor. With a knife, the size differential will immediately become an issue. With other weaponry (baseball bat, golf club, rolling pin, etc) it is a crap shoot.
Now, removing the legal argument. Should a man strike a woman? Any assailant is fair game for hitting. If someone has decided that they wish to do you harm, then their age/gender/infirmary make no difference. I teach that one is only to use that force necessary to resolve the situation. In other words, if one of my advanced students is being assaulted with a knife, I don't expect them to use lethal force. They have been trained to disarm such an opponent. A gun changes the situation, however, once the assailant is disarmed aggression is to end. On the other paw, if an untrained person is attacked, then they need to use whatever force within their means to handle the situation.
Would I personally strike a woman? Not if I could help it. There are other, more effective ways to physically control a woman. The female skeletal structure provides for many non-percussive methodologies of restraint.
Kendall
I'll summarize the TL;DR for the impatient.
+1. This. Like. Retweet. etc
In twenty five words or less: "Is it ever OK to hit a woman." answer: "Yes." :ohh:
Now, after reading all the pontificating and legal flim-flaming above and I'm sure still to come, here's my reasoning.
Except perhaps for the speed of light and the total energy in the Universe, absolutes don't exist. And especially not in the affairs of man! So, addressing the question "is it ever OK to hit a woman?". The answer has to be "yes". However, the real question (and as usual the devil is in the details) is "When is it OK to hit a woman?"
I leave you to continue the petty bickering. :cheese:
No, I am not overthinking.
No, you are not. If you look at it from the point of view that you've had time to sit there and put all this together.
But seriously, anyone coming at you, man or woman, do you really take all this into consideration BEFORE you react?
For the record, I don't hit women. Though my wife insists I did slap her once for angering me, I swear I do not remember doing so. And considering how she's gotten on my nerves before and since I find it hard to believe it's only been the once. But I have no desire to strike her no matter what she does. If she came at me with a knife, I'd run. And I've told my sons the same thing. If their sister hits them, I inform them you do not hit her back. They think it's highly unfair but dem's da rules. And guess what? Today my daughter would not tolerate a man that strikes her. Good to hear.
I grew up in a home where beating a woman wasn't unusual. One day I remember in the middle of one of those beatings I took my limp noodle of an arm and hit the man. He looked at me enraged. My mother told me to stay back and he continued to beat her.
There was years of this abuse and I don't know what happened but one day he took me aside and he told me he'd never put his hands on my mother again. And he never did. She'd throw furniture, punch him, slap him and he never struck back.
I was a kid but my God I was so grateful.
I think that imbued in me the desire to pay it forward. I don't hit women. But I have a limit. Three times. The first two are freebies. The third time and you need to let them know it's time to stop. I wouldn't take my fist and knock anyone out. No. But I'd definitely give a push and let them know that's it. I've given my sons the same rule and have even informed their girlfriends of this rule. Tho my son's latest says she's hit him multiple times and he doesn't do anything. :) Once again, good to hear.
Now if someone's coming at you to do you seriously bodily harm, I have to wonder why it got that far in the first place. I'd've gotten out of there before that. Man or woman. Especially woman. But then, I've been shoved by women on the subway system and without hesitation, shoved them back because that's my initial reaction. No knockdowns, mind you, but a reminder that they put their hands on me.
So, I'm saying, all the philosophizing in the world won't determine what you may want or need to do in any given situation. The best we can hope for is never finding out.
Also, why is this topic a potential can of worms? Are the wife beaters gonna come outta the closet? ;)
kmw
Yes. Hello, this is the internet. Today, I learned that someone I know (who lives in USA) has been a target of an extreme harassment campaign via e-mail (she is female, you can probably guess what she got threatened with), and her close female friend? Was just assaulted last night. In a manner which suggests that the friend was specifically targeted because of her connection. Which also resulted some people telling her that "she was asking for it by tackling a controversial topic, and drawing attention to herself", except in nicer words so they won't get banned from the forum right away. And I'd rather not have MRAs crawling out of woodwork and bawwwing about "not being allowed to beat women".
No sense in wondering. There are people, men and women, who are just mean. There are those who will attack for perceived slights that were imagined, or who will attack on the encouragement of their "peeps", or under the influence of one chemical or another, on and on.
Environment doesn't matter either. People are attacked in parks, pizza delivery people are attacked upon reaching their destinations, flash mobs, gang initiations... no warnings -- most times, no reasons. No time to reason it out.
Always remember that when seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Only you are guaranteed to be where you are at... you are your only protector.
Kendall
This is a very sensitive subject to a lot of people. Please keep in mind the TOS when posting your replies.
double post
new system has some bugs, eh?
No sense in wondering. There are people, men and women, who are just mean. There are those who will attack for perceived slights that were imagined, or who will attack on the encouragement of their "peeps", or under the influence of one chemical or another, on and on.
You are right of course. Thinking back, there are a number of violent situations I've been in where there was no indication it was going to turn violent.
Once I had this brute of a guy turn ugly because I pulled alongside him to ask about a parking space. For some reason, he thought that the fact he was double parked was all the information I needed. When I politely asked why he'd think that he spit on my car and when I didn't flinch he tried to jump out of his car. Except my car was too close and he couldn't get out. I just stared at him. Just stared. When he realized he couldn't get at me unless I let him, I just drove away.
So, yes, you're right.
kmw
Yes. Hello, this is the internet.
Heh.
I guess I still expect a level of civility. Silly me.
kmw
Yes. :down: Just like Kendall pointed out -- some people are just plain mean. This includes their conduct in the internet, not just physical space; if anything, the internet makes it easier. (I probably should point out that I'm no spring chicken, either, despite being a bit of a ditz especially when kittens are involved -- that means I have had plenty of time to hone my thoughts and responses; I have a lifetime of experience behind me.)
there is a certain element, male or female who will hit.
I myself have always been the sarcastic smartarse using verbal putdowns and often yelling, my mother and I had screaming matches,
she would break things, no-one hit anyone.
My father died when I was 10 but he was a yeller like me.
I get into a lot of trouble at work for yelling and talking back but would never physically touch anyone.
it is one of the reasons I am single, I am not "nice" to the boys as other women who are otherwise quite assertive and strong when it comes to other women are.
men who bash would hit someone like me so I avoid those types, I tend to pick up on certain clues as to whom they are, they often usually appear very friendly btw, not what you'd expect.
I have "seen it coming" in other people's relationships but you cannot warn those who do not wish to hear.
funny thing is, I yell and it is over, I move on, others fester on stuff and never let you off the hook holding grudges.
I come across nicer online as I think as I type, in real life I tend to open my mouth first and believe me a lot comes out, I never shut up!
I am one of those obnoxious women who chatter continuously many men dislike.