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Difference between NPR shaders?

nocforweb_9420025c24nocforweb_9420025c24 Posts: 19
in New Users

Hi everyone - total newbie here to this tool (I mean I've used Max, Maya, Photoshop, Lightroom, Illustrator, done simple 2d shaders based on normal directions - but never used Daz3d beyond the intro tutorials)

I'd like to get into it more but before going deep I just want to make sure I can get a look I could be excited about - doing away with anything that look 'CG'.  

Btw, to my aesthetic this looks CG: 

In my perfect ideal world I'd love to get looks like:

Or (if I were to look at non-CG I'd love to reach, I'd shoot for stuff like)

But I get that's unrealistic for starting out and that all those took a lot of work and deep knowledge past 'out of the box'... So I'd be happy to just go noir style and get stuff like 

Or other 'over the top' stuff versions of NPR like that that go far enough people don't think of them as CG..  I guess if I had to define it, it would be stuff with non-uniform line width on strokes, and either no shadows / all black shadows / textured shadows..  Stuff like that.

There seem to be a few popular shader tools there, but at $20ish a pop I'd rather not buy every possible shader just to see which (if any) I'd like.  For that matter, trying to figure out 'what is the difference between what these do', 'what can each of them not do', and if at all possible 'what have you done with these that pushed them without breaking out scripting'

Thoughts?  

Comments

  • nocforweb_9420025c24nocforweb_9420025c24 Posts: 19
    Hmm it keeps saying there is 1 comment here but not seeing it, so if you replied please do it again or message me, very much want to hear your thoughts
  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,579

    I use Visual Style Dhaders alot, but you have to tweak the settings to get the look you want.  You can figure that out by using the PDF tutorials that the PA has made available.  Also, VSS only works with 3Delight.  Check out this thread.

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/10961/manga-style-visual-style-topic-update-sept-23rd-2017-fixed-dropbox-links-commercial/p1

    Beyond that, all I can say is experinent with different shaders, If VSS and MSS don't meet your needs.  The biggest problem I have with VSS is that the skin shaders don't have eyebrows, so you have to use other products to make up for that depending on what gen models you use.

  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,579
    edited December 2017

    BTW, some of the examples you posted are made by a guy known as @algovincian and he uses custom scripts not available in the DAZ store.  If you haven't already done so, check out this thread as well

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/54697/non-photorealistic-renders-npr/p84

    Post edited by tkdrobert on
  • nocforweb_9420025c24nocforweb_9420025c24 Posts: 19
    Thankyou tkdrobert, I'll try the visual style shader one then. I'd seen the links you'd mentioned (thank you though for linking them), just couldn't tell from them what the difference was - seemed to do much the same things. Didn't know if the manga one was an update to the visual style one or had different features, and the tutorial PDFs are written too differently to tell. And yea, read that thread (it's where I got the images), I really hope he finds a way to sell or share his process... But not expecting it, sounds very involved. Just hoping there is 'something' out there that can do a limited version of that. Thanks again - I'll try that one and if it doesn't work... Maybe I can find a Photoshop flow that will. (Really don't wanna spend $100+ on shaders just to sample them)
  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,579
    nocforweb_9420025c24 said:
    Thankyou tkdrobert, I'll try the visual style shader one then. I'd seen the links you'd mentioned (thank you though for linking them), just couldn't tell from them what the difference was - seemed to do much the same things. Didn't know if the manga one was an update to the visual style one or had different features, and the tutorial PDFs are written too differently to tell. And yea, read that thread (it's where I got the images), I really hope he finds a way to sell or share his process... But not expecting it, sounds very involved. Just hoping there is 'something' out there that can do a limited version of that. Thanks again - I'll try that one and if it doesn't work... Maybe I can find a Photoshop flow that will. (Really don't wanna spend $100+ on shaders just to sample them)

    I don't use Manga Style Shaders.  If you read Manga, it has a distintive style and MSS helps you achieve that.  If you're not looking to copy that style you don't need it.  I can post the setting I use for VSS if you want.  I had to experiment with the surface tab settings, using the PDF, to get the look I wanted.

  • nocforweb_9420025c24nocforweb_9420025c24 Posts: 19
    That would be fantastic, it would be great to try both yours and the official tutorials just to get a better feel for the range of that shader tool. Thank you :)
  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,579
    nocforweb_9420025c24 said:
    That would be fantastic, it would be great to try both yours and the official tutorials just to get a better feel for the range of that shader tool. Thank you :)

    I'll do my best to post the settings when I get home tonight.

  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,579

    OK here are my settings.  Now the setting you should be most conserned about are Shading-Start and Shading-End; Outline-Start and Outline-End.  Notice I have both Outline-Light and Outline Dark as black.  These are the setting you want to experiment with to get the look you want. 

    Finally, if you want a texture to display after you apply the shader, (i.e shirt pattern) you have to reaply the texture to both the Diffuse-Light and Defuse-Dark.  These screanshots don't have a texture applied. 

    I hope this helps.  Feel free to ask me any questions and I'll do my best to answer. 

  • nocforweb_9420025c24nocforweb_9420025c24 Posts: 19

    Hmm.. I am not seeing anything attached  with your settings, where would I need to look?

    I am also trying what's in the video ()

    And trying to refer to the manual ( http://docs.daz3d.com/lib/exe/fetch.php/public/read_me/index/14398/14398_visual-style-shaders.pdf )

    And I am using the Visual Style Shader, but I am getting a regular grayscale model  (white and gray, but very much CG).  With everything set to either black or white.  I'm noticing others are having similar issues:

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/218026/shaders-mysteriously-not-working#latest

    May I ask what kind of camera you are using, or render settings, or.. whatever you'd need to get this working?  And are these supposed to work for all the possible figures?  I"m using Genesis 8 Fem.. am I missing something in how to use this shader for noir?  (I'm expecting to see everything as black and white)

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  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,579

    I'm sorry, I don't know what happened to my screenshots.  I'll fix it tonight.  In the mean time, let me try and give you my numbers by memory.

    Shading-Start 5.00

    Shading-End: 5.10

    Outline-Start: 0

    Outline-End: 1.10

    Outline-Light and Outline Dark are both set to black

     

    VSS works as intended in 3Delight.  There is a way to use them in IRAY but it wasn't designed for that.  You can use VSS on any object and any figure.  However, if you use the skins, there are no eyebrows.  There are eyebrow add-ons for Gen 8 (and others figures).  For my comic book renders, I use Gen 1 alot with Genesis Eyebrows (https://www.daz3d.com/genesis-eyebrows).  I haven't played with the Noir shaders at all.

    Also take a look at the following products that I have and use:

    DG Toon Style Eyes for Genesis 2 Female(s): https://www.daz3d.com/dg-toon-style-eyes-for-genesis-2-female-s

    DG Toon Style Eyes for Genesis 2 Male(s): https://www.daz3d.com/dg-toon-style-eyes-for-genesis-2-male-s

    DG Toon Style Hair Shaders: https://www.daz3d.com/dg-toon-style-hair-shaders

    The 1st two have default skins to use with a ton of eyebows, but the skin is only for white toons.  You can experiment with the Diffuse settings to create other color skin though.  In my opinion, so far, there is not 1 product that does everything I want or looks exactly like I want, so I mix and match and adjust in postwork.

  • nocforweb_9420025c24nocforweb_9420025c24 Posts: 19

    Progress!  Those settings didn't quite work for me (I ended up using Shading Start/End 7-7.1, Outline Start/end 0.5-0.51) but they totally pointed me to the settings I could play with.  And changing the renderer fixed everything (eventually saw the button for it), thank you :)

    And I'll be taking a look at those shaders shortly.   

    Only two things still missing I think and I'll be in great shape (and hopefully everyone else who follows and sees this post - thank you so much for the help)

    (1) The shadows are fairly minimal - is there a way to get that effect where part of the body is blacked out by shadow (eg. the face in the video I linked to?)  I tried your settings but they weren't seeming to affect that

    (2) I tried adding a light into the scene (several actually).. the image just seems to ignore lights alltogether.  Is there a trick or setting to get shadows based on lights in the scene? I have accept-shadows on, shading is as listed above.. and that's the image I get when the only light (I know of) in the scene is behind the model (so most should currently actually be blacked out right now)

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  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,579

    When you add lights in 3Delight, you need to highlight the light, then click on the lights tab on the lower left.  You have to set the light to cast shadows.  I'd post a screenshot but I'm not at home.  See if that helps you,  I'll try your numbers and see if I like it better.

  • nocforweb_9420025c24nocforweb_9420025c24 Posts: 19

    Hmm.. pretty sure its on, but not seeing any effect.. tried moving around all the sliders that I could find, tried googling and searching forums, tried the visual shader document that comes with it (only talks about the visual shader specific toggles).. I think I'm missing something silly (and the correct words to search by)

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  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,579

    What version of Daz are you using?  Never seen a fill light before.

  • nocforweb_9420025c24nocforweb_9420025c24 Posts: 19

    4.10 Pro - I think its from the 'Sci-Fi Warrior Lights' set that the tool recommends in 'smart content'.  I take it that's not the one you're using / that you've had success with?  What do you normall yuse that you've had success with?

  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,579

    Just the basic spotlights or the distant lights for 3Delight.

  • nocforweb_9420025c24nocforweb_9420025c24 Posts: 19

    *sigh* yea, just tried the basic create->spotlight too.. no luck.  Is there a support forum for this shader by chance where we can poke at them and ask?

  • tkdroberttkdrobert Posts: 3,579
    nocforweb_9420025c24 said:

    *sigh* yea, just tried the basic create->spotlight too.. no luck.  Is there a support forum for this shader by chance where we can poke at them and ask?

    https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/10961/manga-style-visual-style-topic-update-sept-23rd-2017-fixed-dropbox-links-commercial#latest

  • nocforweb_9420025c24nocforweb_9420025c24 Posts: 19
    Thank you! :)
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