Pre-Iray Products - Is it worth the risk anymore?
Hi all,
After using Iray (or trying to) for the last couple of weeks its come to my attention that quite a few of the items in my product library are not really Iray compatible, specifically with regards to how the textures come out in the renders. This particularly seems to be a problem with shaders and environments (even if you use the Iray Uber Base). However, it doesn't seem to be very easy to predict which will look ok and which won't. Seems to be a bit of a lottery.
But the physics-based lighting in Iray is such a great leap up from 3Delight that I can't see myself ever wanting to go back to using 3Delight again now.
Then I saw this new product http://www.daz3d.com/dazneyland and noticed the "Daz Studio render with Nvidia Iray" label on it - something I'm sure we'll be seeing a lot more of in the future.
So this got me thinking...
If one were to decide that they only wanted to work in Iray from now on, is it going to be worth buying any products anymore that pre-date the release of Iray and have the potential to be Iray incompatible?
OR....
Do people think that ANY product can be made to look good in Iray, no matter what?
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At the moment Iray is till in beta. IT is really pretty pointless to speculate any further along those sort of lines at this point in time.
Thanks for the reply chohole.
That in itself is an argument for holding off on all purchases until the beta finishes isn't it? If one wanted to play it safe with their (very limited) money, that is.
I appreciate that its still in beta and these issues might disappear as they improve the engine. But for me, personally, its thrown a lot of uncertainty into the mix as to what products I'm going to be safe buying now and which are going to end up in my "never used" collection (which continues to grow).
I'm not trying to be contrary - I'm genuinely looking for advice on this. I plan to only use Iray going forward and if people think that ALL products can be made to look good in Iray as things stand right now then great, I'll just continue to make purchases and try to get better at using DS.
But if you're saying that its a "wait and see" scenario then I'll take that advice as "don't buy anything more until the beta finishes".
With the right textures and settings anything (to a degree) should look good in Iray, but you will have to learn all about the surface settings etc before you can do that. People will still be using 3delight so I doubt products are suddenly going to have Iray settings; there's things you can't do in Iray that you can in 3delight.
The best thing to do Is learn about Iray's texture settings to work out how best to convert things. In the old days most content came optimised for Poser and DS users had to learn how to alter settings and textures to get them to look right, its a bit like that.
I am not saying don't buy anything, I am saying that no one can really predict anything at this stage apart from things that are already being discovered and which are well covered in the Iray threads that are around. There are several Iray threads in the DS forum and one long Iray render thread in the Commons, all of which have more information in them than you are likely to find here in the New Users Forum, although there is some information here on Iray.
Most people are finding things are working with the minimum of problem if you check the threads out. THere are lots of tips and tricks outlined in those dedicated threads.
Thanks to both for your comments.
I am still going to try to learn all I can about using Iray, of course. But nothing I have read so far (and I think I've found and read all the main forum threads on it now) has helped me to tackle the problems I'm having with certain products and nor has trial and error. I have asked about the issues I'm having but people have either agreed that its a known problem or I haven't received any replies (in which case I assume theres no known solution).
From what I've seen of the renders that are going up, no-one has tried rendering the products I'm trying, so maybe thats why they haven't come across the same problems.
I guess the logical thing to do then will be to keep working on trying to make these things look right and only start buying again once/if I'm successful with it.
Which products are you having problems with, if I have them I will see if I can help although I really am not good with Iray.
Thank you scorpio64dragon. Let me first say that I'm quite new to Daz and obviously very n00b at Iray, so if the answer is glaringly obvious then I apologise. I admit that I didn't understand absolutely everything I've read about it.
The first problem I've been having is with all skydomes. From what I've been able to discover, it doesn't seem to be possible to use a skydome with Iray because it blocks out the Iray environment dome. People have suggested using the skydome image maps in the environment map, but this has the effect of both smothering the Iray sun settings and colouring the light from the dome the same colour as the texture map. I can't see a way around it other than having to procure a bunch of HDR maps instead - and even then it looks as though they block out the sun settings as well, so I don't know if I want to do that either.
The second problem I've been having is with the ground textures for http://www.daz3d.com/dry-mud-desert and http://www.daz3d.com/land-of-the-ice-cold-sun (my 2 favourite outdoor environments). Both textures come out very fuzzy and blurred when I render with Iray and have this kind of checkered grid pattern on them that I can't get rid of. The same issue also happens with http://www.daz3d.com/grassy-grounds-megapack but at least there I can cover it up with the grass props.
I've been wanting to buy more environments like these, but only if its possible to get them to look good in Iray.
Take your skydome and apply the Iray shader base
go into the light settings and increase the luminosity (and adjust temp or color if you wish)
Then in render settings, set the SS sun node to your skydome and voila! your skydome is now your sun.
So, you've got two things gong against you with that one...the texture size. Iray is going to automatically reduce the size of the texture...probably down to 1024 x 1024. With the original being 4K instead of 4096, that isn't going to be a 'smooth' scale. The texture reduction can be adjusted.
The other is the custom shader...it's probably not going to work in Iray, either.
For the most part I think that is true. The only thing that is never going to function properly in Iray at all are procedural shaders created in shader mixer for 3Delight. I think the older the product the higher risk that the textures may not hold up under Iray scrutiny. That is due to the fact that older products often had smaller textures because the computers were just not ready for bigger texture maps. As far as nearly everything else goes I think it could be made to look good in iray with enough fiddling. The question then is how much fiddling are you willing to do.
Ok, so which products have that problem and which don't? Unless you know for sure before hand, you're taking a risk.
Well I've been fiddling with these scenes for a week now (pretty solidly) and haven't made any real progress. What mjc1016 says about the textures just goes to show the extent you have to go to and the level of knowledge you need in order to make this work - which to me is asking a lot of someone when they're purchasing a supposedly 'finished product' (I understand that they're finished in terms of 3Delight - but we have Iray to consider now as well). These products were very, very new by the way.
Now if each product came with the warning that you have to be a Photoshop expert in order to use them, I'd understand and I'd avoid those particular products.
Edit: I'm not blaming the artists, by the way. They had no way of knowing that their products would have problems in Iray, obviously.
Odd, this has always worked for me. Guess I'll need to play around more and see if it pops up.
Odd, this has always worked for me. Guess I'll need to play around more and see if it pops up.
Unless I'm just still doing it wrong somehow. Its not beyond the realms of possibility, but if I am then I don't know what I'm not doing right.
It seems to me all you're doing with that method is making your entire skydome a light emitting surface, which isn't correct because light should be coming from the direction of the sun.
Yes that's true, but you can really only tell the direction of the sun by the shadows and I use other lights for shadows. I've not messed with Iray a whole lot but in the few runs I've done with skydomes, it's worked. When I get a chance I'll run through some more skydome tests and if I run across that problem, I'll figure a way around it :)
The brightest light should be coming from the sun but nearly everything reflects some light and that is what the rest of it represents.
Yes that's true, but you can really only tell the direction of the sun by the shadows and I use other lights for shadows. I've not messed with Iray a whole lot but in the few runs I've done with skydomes, it's worked. When I get a chance I'll run through some more skydome tests and if I run across that problem, I'll figure a way around it :)
Oh I see. Yes, I tried that method myself, with the extra light for the sun. It does kinda work but its a bit of a fudge and it doesn't look as natural as just using the sunlight from the environment dome (with no skydome at all). Plus, I tend to find that if I turn the lumin value up on the skydome it bleeds the colour out of the textures.
Thank you kaotkbliss, I appreciate the help :)
To all browsing this thread:- I realise that some people might see this as just complaining about a product thats still in beta, but if we don't take this opportunity to point out its potential flaws whilst its still in development then Iray is not going to improve much before general release. This is the whole point of open betas.
The brightest light should be coming from the sun but nearly everything reflects some light and that is what the rest of it represents.
Yes, I understand how ambient light works. But if you stand outside on a sunny day the direction of the sunlight and the shadows it casts are clear to see. Yes theres ambient light around from the sunlight bouncing off surfaces, but this pales in comparison. Using a skydome with Iray you don't get that directional sunlight (again, unless I'm doing something wrong).
If you make the whole skydome a light emitting surface then its like an overcast day where the sun isn't really casting any shadows and the light is coming from the 'sky' rather than the 'sun'.
Plus theres the problem I mentioned of the light being smothered and taking on an unrealistic hue.
I've had that problem with the color bleed when trying to set up neon signs to cast their colored light onto nearby objects. I never did get it to look right.
But now that I think about it (and I'll have to check) I may not have used the Lumins in the skydome properties but the render settings instead. (That sounds more likely as I hadn't started messing around with object surfaces until I was trying to get neon lights to look right.)
Don't forget that 3Delight is not going away. people have been getting very enthusiastic about Iray, of course, but both render engines are serious pieces of software capable of producing excellent, if different, results. Also don't forget that the standard DAZ 30 day warranty applies to content you purchase, so you can always try it out (and check the forums for tips) without risk (unless it's a special sale, such as a punch sale, where the guarantee doesn't apply - but it's usually simple to avoid those by waiting a couple of days before buying a new item).
Thanks Richard. Yes, I appreciate that 3Delight will still be around but personally, as a relatively new user who never really had time to properly get to grips with 3Delight before Iray emerged, I'd much rather just concentrate all my energies on learning an unbiased render engine from here on in (rather than trying to master both at once and getting horribly confused in the process). Like I said before - I can't really see myself going back to 3Delight now, so I'd like all purchases I make from now on to work well in Iray without too much Photoshop wizardry required.
What I'm hoping is that catalogue artists will at some point start producing products with Iray in mind (like Dazney Land appears to have been) and will state that they're optimized for Iray in the promo info so that I can be sure it'll work without problems.
I was aware of the 30-day money back guarantee, but thanks for reminding me about it. I think this might be the best idea for making purchases at this time.
Whats a "punch sale" by the way?
I think for the most part all content will work fine in Iray with added surface adjustments but in the case of Skydome IMHO they won't work as well as they do in 3Delight. This is the same for Luxrender or Octane. For me I feel that sun/Sky is best when the sky isn't visible in the render as Iray is not like Vue where we can have clouds etc. This is where good quality HDRI's come in handy, to a; give good light and shadows and b; to give a good realistic background.
I don't see your posts as complaining but more from the POV that you are new and lack a better understanding which is understandable and the knowledge will come in time.
I've been seeing that term a lot these last couple days, HDRI, what is that exactly?
Well, if you like Iray, shaders and other effects are obviously not going to be very useful.
But cool models and creatures will. I mean, any of the robots and ships can be punched up to great coolness with good use of materials.
Frankly, IMO, Iray has increased the value of a lot of content.
Now backdrops/sets are more iffy, because it's not always clear how well textures will step up.
Having used DAZ studio Octane Render plugin for quite awhile you'd be surprised how many old props and environments can be spruced up to look pretty realistic. OcDS has plenty of great materials for this purpose and if iRAY works in a similar way then iRAY materials can be applied to transform scenes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you don't like the old steel material then apply the iRAY steel for super steely sheen! Want realistic reflective mirrors? Then apply the iRAY mirror material. Think of it like this, even if the old materials don't look great it's pretty easy to replace them with unbiased render materials. Once you get the hang of how unbiased rendering works then the comparison between the old and new way is like night and day. I find it much more intuitive.
I suspect that DAZ will update their products with specific iRAY versions and PA's will do the same. Don't forget DAZ wants to sell content and who's going to buy all that substantial pre-iRAY catalogue unless it's updated? I hope those of us who already own it will receive these updates gratis. Unless you're a masochist I see no reason to continue to render the incredibly slow and less realistic way so I'm assuming iRAY will become the de-facto DS renderer - another reason for backwards product compatibility.
Yes, I understand how ambient light works. But if you stand outside on a sunny day the direction of the sunlight and the shadows it casts are clear to see. Yes theres ambient light around from the sunlight bouncing off surfaces, but this pales in comparison. Using a skydome with Iray you don't get that directional sunlight (again, unless I'm doing something wrong).
If you make the whole skydome a light emitting surface then its like an overcast day where the sun isn't really casting any shadows and the light is coming from the 'sky' rather than the 'sun'.
Plus theres the problem I mentioned of the light being smothered and taking on an unrealistic hue.
Have you tried using emissive planes to introduce lighting in specific areas? It is a pain if iRAY can't combine environmental lighting with skydomes, HDRI's and interiors.
You can use HDRI-Images for Image Based Lighting. Similar to the UE2 in 3Delight, you can use an Environment Map as Lightsource in unbiased Render Engines.
HDRIs ( High Dynamic Range Images ) with the file extension .hdr or .exr giving the best results.
Free HDRIs: http://www.hdrlabs.com/sibl/archive.html
It is far easier to convert the photometric spot to one of the other shapes rather than setting up a plane. For one thing you can still look through the camera. There are 4 shapes and they can be sized how ever you like them.
Well me for one - Iray is slower for me than 3Delight; and not all of us care for photorealism and to be perfectly frank some of the renders I've seen come out of Iray are far from realistic in any way. I also can't see Daz or the PA's going through the very large backlog of content and updating it.
It is far easier to convert the photometric spot to one of the other shapes rather than setting up a plane. For one thing you can still look through the camera. There are 4 shapes and they can be sized how ever you like them.
The problem for me is that I like every light in my scenes to have as accurate a light source as possible (because I do comic strips and move the camera around each scene a lot). If there were lights just shining out of thin air or off an object that shouldn't be emitting light then it'd look daft. So if I'm creating a scene outdoors, the logical main light source should be the sun. At the moment with Iray this seems to mean using just the plain environment dome or nothing (although I'm still investigating HDRIs).
I think in terms of my original post Richard has probably answered the question well enough - liberal use of the 30-day returns policy is probably the best course of action for the time being. A kind of "try before you buy" approach, if you will.
No-one but mjc1016 has mentioned the specific environment products I was looking at (ice cold sun and dry mud desert). I take it that no-one else has been using these with Iray then?
1. Select your skydome and frame it so that you see whole dome in your viewport.
2. Activate Geometry Editor (Tools - Geometry Editor)
3. Click with right mouse button anywhere in your viewport to get a menu and from menu select Selection Mode - Marquee Selection (thats "bounding box" selection)
4. Click and drag selection around the parts of skydome you wish to hide in order to let the sunlight inside the dome (pic1). Basically, you can select everything that wont be visible in your rendered picture. If you wish to make multiple selections, CTRL + drag adds to selection, ALT + drag removes from selection.
5. After you have selected desired parts click with right mouse button in the viewport to get a menu and select Geometry Visibility - Hide Selected Polygon(s) (pic2).
6. Select some other tool to exit the geometry editor
And you have parts of skydome you need for the picture and sunlight. Ofc, for example when your background and sunlight is coming from the same direction your visible parts of the dome will make shadows, so it might not be perfect for all situations.
Oh, and if you save the scene, your hiding the parts wont be saved, so you will have to hide it again when you reload the scene.