I Believe In Diversity, But, Um...
The skin tones of both Gen 8 male and female are workable when they are alone in a scene. But when you put them together they look like they are from different planets.
To be more specific, Gen 8 female might be named Orange Girl. I can work with that by adjusting colors in my video editor. Gen 8 male skin tone looks realistic in Daz, no color adjustments needed for my taste.
The problem arises when I put the two characters together in a scene. If I adjust the skin tone of Orange Girl in my video editor Gen 8 male gets all washed out, and looks kinda like Pale Zombie Man.
I've only been using Daz about a month, so hopefully the issue is a lack of knowledge on my part. Is there something I can set, do, or buy that would help Gen 8 male and female have similar skin tones?
I know it's wrong to discriminate against orange people, but, well, so I guess I must be a racist after all. 
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Comments
Don't adjust your video editor, adjust the acfual skin surface in Daz Stuidio. There is a tab called Surfacing and Rendering inside DS where you can click on the figure parts and adjust the material settings of figures and props.
There are also producs in the store that can alter the skin tones for better results. One of my faves is Altern8 https://www.daz3d.com/altern8--skin-shader-system-for-genesis-8 it works on both G3 and g8 figures.
There's a number of settings on the skin surfaces that you can use to tweak the colors. Since different vendors have different skin setups and different maps there's isn't a single "one way" to do things. You can try adjusting the orange character by selecting it, going to surfaces, clicking Skin-Lips-Nails, finding Translucency Weight and lowering the value (.5 or .6 or .65 or anywhere around there). Another pair of settings that you can try lowering the values for are Transmitted Measurement Distance or Scattering Measurement Distance.
Thank you much for the replies.
I have all Gen 8 female skin selected using the Surface Selection tool. I'm in the Surfaces pane and see the 9,000 ridiculously obscure options. Now what?
(BTW, by way of comparison, nobody had to teach me how to adjust colors in Hitfilm.)
PS: Before I begin fiddling around making a color mess, perhaps someone might instruct me on how to restore defaults. Thank you.
Adjusting surface settings for skin is more complex than simply understanding how to adjust color temperature and exposure settings in images / video. It involves understanding how light interacts with the skin and how changing something like the transmission depth can change the look in your rendered image. And the first thing any tutorial on skin shading should tell you is that surface settings are only half the battle. Skin settings that look natural in one scene may need to be adjusted in another when the light sources are significantly different.
I use the Altern8 system that FSMC mentioned above. It is very good for getting some standardized results and provides nice presets to start from. I also picked up the the Skin Shading Bundle a while ago that includes the Skin Shading Essentials Tutorial and Ultimate Iray Skin Manager.
The tutorial in particular is fantastic for explaining all those surface setting options and breaking down how they effect things. The Skin Manager product is mostly a time saver as it gives you a single interface to "play" with the skin surface settings instead of having to go into each surface and adjust them dial by dial.
As for getting the settings back, the easiest way is just to reload the character's Iray materials. That should reset their skin back to the way it was when it first loaded into the scene.
one needs to differentiate shaders from materials
the maps themselves may well be fine, it maybe is the shader giving the orange look
one way to test is to hold ctrl and load a shader then a dialogue will come up letting you keep the maps
otherwise it should be possible just to select all the skin surfaces only under the surface tab and tweak stuff such as base coat, dual lobe etc the colour associated with the maps to make it cooler such as adding a pale blue or grey
Thanks for the further info guys.
Please forgive me, I have this problem. I designed and coded my own software for years and so my mind is apparently incurably trained to resist unnecessary complications (which I see as a primary barrier to increased sales). So when I look at this situation what I see is that I can adjust the skin color of Gen 8 female perfectly well using very simple obvious controls in Hitfilm, a free video editor. No fancy anything required.
But ok, I hear you, Daz is not Hitfilm so if I want to adjust colors in Daz I have no choice but to jump through all the hoops. Thank you for the information you've provided.
QUESTION #1: When I adjust skin colors of a character in Daz I'm adjusting only that one character in that one file, right? That is, I can't do damage to the default G8F character, who will always appear as she does now when I first load her in a scene. Correct? If yes, that's good, because it means I can't break anything. On the other hand I guess that means I'll have to adjust her skin tone every time I use her. Do I have this right?
QUESTION #2: Is the skin color of a character determined by an image file that I could edit in an image editor? Is that what the surface pane is doing, editing an image file? Ok, probably wishful thinking here, but I thought I'd give it a shot just in case.
QUESTION #3: If I purchased a new character for G8F would that be likely to come with it's own skin tone? Would this perhaps be the easiest solution?
Thanks again for the helping hand, much appreciated.
Question 1, you won't break any default settings, only change what is in that scene and only if you save it for that scene. The default G8 stays the same as you purchased it. Once you get it to how you like, you can save it as a material preset for future use on any GF8 figure.
Question 2. Sure, you can edit the diffuse texture to change the color, but as you have seen there are many settings that make up the final color, not just the diffuse, so even if you change the color on the base diffuse texture, it may not come out how you want due to the other settings. There are products in the store and quite a few free resources on the web describing/explaining the many settings that make up the iray skin settings.
Question 3. yep, that is indeed an alternative. All characters come with their own skin and settings.
It's funny you say "unnecessary complications (which I see as a primary barrier to increased sales)" because I see just the opposite, everything here is too simplified for the artists. There are so many products that are plug and play. In artists communities that don't use Daz Studio, but high end commercial apps like Maya and Max, artists have to create things for themselves, including the figures, the textures from scratch and even the lighting. take a look at the galleries at CGSociety
I do get where you're coming from. The funny thing is that years ago, this was actually easier because our rendering engines were less sophisticated. In this case, think of it as you are adjusting how the rendering engine calculates the effect of light on skin. There are several components of this model (which you noted when you saw all those settings in the surface panel) and some of them interact. So yeah, it is more complicated. But I think once you get the hang of things it will seem a little less like voodoo. :)
You're correct on Part 1. You are adjusting the surface settings of the instance of the figure you have in your current scene. While it is conceivable to mess up your base figure, you have to jump through a lot of hoops to get there. :) For part 2, you can make this simpler if you have a figure you expect to reuse a lot. The simplest way is to setup your character with her skin, hair, etc. and then save her as a Scene Subset. This will let you select items from your scene (e.g. Genesis 8 Female and her attached hair) and save them to be merged in later. I do this with several of my characters so that I know that the morphs, skin, hair color, etc. are the same every time. There are other ways (like character presets and material presets) but if you know for a fact you want that exact character in multiple images, the scene subset is really the easiest way to go.
Technically yes. But you may find that's more problematic than it is worth for a couple of reasons. First, the skin is typically broken up into more than one texture file. So you would have to make sure you made exactly the same changes to more than one file. And second you'd have to save that image off somewhere so that you don't mess up your base images and remember where it is to reload it if you used it again (without the Scene Subset thing I mentioned above). You're probably better off using some adjustments you can do inside the surface settings.
For instance, when you see an image file and the color selector for a setting (say the Base color), the image is multiplied by the color value, thus tinting it. So if the color feels too "warm" for you, you can change the color selector to a light blue to cool it off a little.
Also, if you click on the image selector, there will be an option called "Image Editor". While this isn't a full blown paint program it can allow you to adjust some things like the Gamma setting to adjust the contrast of the skin if that helps you get closer to your goals.
Again, you still need to remember to do this on all the surfaces or else you'll end up with a well balanced torso color and orange arms or face. :)
Yes, it would come with separate skin maps. If the goal is still to say match skin tones between characters though, it may not be enough. Different vendors and and even different characters from the same vendor may have different skin tone settings. Given your initial post was about matching characters, I think you may find you're still going to need to learn more about skin surfaces and how to set them up for your goals.
As a rule, folks here are usually happy to help. Most of us started from scratch at some point in this hobby and there can be a steep learning curve. So we like to help people get over that hurdle if they can.
Thanks again to both you guys. Ok, buying a new character seems like the way to go for me, that's simple enough. I've got my eye on a couple anyway.
Not that this matters, but am I really the first person to be puzzled by how different the skin color of G8F and G8M are? That just seems odd, but perhaps there is some good reason which I'm not aware of.
I've bookmarked this thread for some later date when I'm ready to become a color engineer.
Appreciate both of your inputs.
i am sure you are not the first person to be confused by all the settings for the various skin materials, LOL This product might be a better investment than just another character for the skin and it's on sale 60% off with a new item. https://www.daz3d.com/ultimate-iray-skin-manager
lol
Welcome to the world of 3D!
Nothing in 3D will be as simple as 2D ...... because your dealing with ... ummm .... 3D data
. Not only are you dealing with 3D data/objects, but with the way the light interacts with the 3D object (and not just the surface of the object, but for objects that have some form of light penetration, how that object will absorb, reflect, and refract the light), and the materials/shaders that define the surfaces on that object, to react to synthetic light energy in the same way that a real object interacts with light. DAZ Studio actually makes what is inherently incredibly complex, quite easy for the end user.
If your ever really interested in learning why surfaces, materials, and shaders are more complex in 3D software and DAZ Studio than Hitfilm (or any 2D application), take a look at the Pixar Renderman 20 Documentation here, or the Pixar Renderman 22 Documentation here (the R20 documentation is seems a bit more technical), or for some light reading about Iray, which is what you are using in DS, check out "The Iray Light Transport Simulation and Rendering System" here.
"Gen 8 female might be named Orange Girl."
Yep, the skin tones on many Genesis characters I have not seen before on any human being..... aliens perhaps.
I've found it easier to swap skins between G8F and G8M so they aren't so glaringly different when put together. You can buy a product that will allow you to use G8F and G8M skins on each other. Can't remember what it's called.
Did you swap skins by some manual method, or by using the product whose name escapes you at the moment? You make a good point, the skin tone I want is already in the system somewhere and is being used on G8M. The G8M skin looks pretty realistic to me, I have no complaint with it.
I have no complaint with something??? WTF!!! Is that even allowed??
I find an easy way to fix the color (which to me looks more like mustard tbh) is to go to the "SSS reflectance tint" on the surface tab, and set it to white. It sometimes looks a bit pale, but I find it works 97% of the time
I take your point, and there's a lot of truth there, agreed.
However, as I said at the top, I'm able to easily adjust G8F skin tone in Hitfilm. Also, in the discussion above I learned that skin tones are just a collection of image files. The brightness, contrast, saturation, RGB etc of any image file can be easily adjusted in an image editing app using the simplest of controls. A entire folder of image files can be adjusted all at once using image apps such as Graphic Converter (Mac) and I'm sure the same is true on Windows, again using simple controls.
So I respectfully don't agree that making simple color adjustments of a 3D model necessarily has to be an obscure complex process.
What I see happening instead is that those who code 3D apps are obviously highly technical people, and so they create an interface suited to their own taste. They are highly skilled technically, but have a limited understanding of how unnecessary complications negatively impact the sale or use of their software.
Here's an example. If you had to learn Unix to post on this forum would you consider that an advanced or primitive interface? Unix is a very powerful system, so a Unix based forum interface might sound very advanced. But then, in the real world, you probably just want to quickly post some comments so Unix would be getting in your way. Thus, such a Unix based forum interface would not be advanced, but would instead be primitive.
Thus hath I ranted...
I'll try that, thanks!
The SSS reflectance tint, so simple and obvious!
I'm pretty sure they have that on the International Space Station too, or maybe it's at the Large Hadron Collider.
Oops, I can't seem to find SSS reflectance tint anywhere in the Surfaces tab. Mr. Duh needs a tip again....
When looking for specific settings, the little "Enter text to filter by" box can be a life-saver...
Also, since I'm a "picture is worth a thousand words" type of guy, I'll restate a bit of what @JonnyRay said above.
Many of the surface settings combine a file and a modifier. Here's the one for the base color on the face of a character. The little area on the left is a tiny picture of the image file, and to the right is the tint modifier. If you hover your mouse over the tiny image, you'll see the path to it. If you wanted to edit the image:
The color modifier to the right is used to tint the entire image that's used on this surface. In this particular case, a slightly grey value (0.95, 0.95, 0.95) is being applied to darken the skin just slightly. So if you want to make the skin more yellow, say, you can do it by altering this value to a more yellowish color. This setting is only saved in the file you're working on - altering it does not change the base figure. Thus, this could be a way of "de-oranging" the skin. Of course, you'd have to do the same thing on each individual surface.
Once you have a figure exactly the way you want it, you only have it set up in that one particular scene. To avoid re-doing all that work over and over again, you have a couple of choices:
Sorry I didn't post any solutions yesterday, my computer was tied up doing other things.
I don't have many of the official DAZ 8 Series characters, but it looks like Teen Kaylee 8 does have the much talked about orange tint (see reference default settings render below). For all of my sample renders, I have used the default Iray HDRI as the only source of light - with the camera headlamp turned off - different light settings will give different results.
First, the main source of the problem does not seem to be the texture map, so just modifying it will probably not provide the desired results. The texture map is a slighty orangish, but the very slight orange can is easily neutralized by changing other settings. It appears, at least with Teen Kaylee 8, that the real culprit for the overly orange tint is the transmitted color setting, which is quite orange (note: as the intensity of the light increases, so does the orange tint), as you can see here:
To easily modify this, make sure you have "Skin-Lips-Nails" selected for your character in the surfaces tab (see first image above). Scroll down to where you see the "Transmitted Color" setting and click inside the color bar to bring up the "Select Color" window, and select a color that is a bit less orange. and more like the color you want (keep in mind, this will be the color that is transmitted by the light reflected back to the surface from beneath the skin), the examples below will give you an idea regarding what changing the color will do to the skin color.
Color selector moved toward yellow (left and down)
Color selector moved toward red (right and down)
Color selector moved to red with lower color saturation (right and down more to light pink)
If this doesn't quite get what you want/need, you can easily modify the colors even more by slightly changing "Base Color" color, and/or the "Translucency Color" color. Changing the base color will add that color the the base texture, and changing the translucency color will change the subsurface color (i.e. in areas where there the light does not penetrate the surface much (low light) this color will not be as intense).
Hope this helps a bit.
Hi Dustrider, thanks for your post. Thanks to rames44 too.
Ok, here's where I am.
- I've selected G8F
- I've selected her skin using Surface Tool
- I'm in the editor section of the Surface Pane
- I've clicked on Skin/Lips/Nails in the left column
- I see no option called Transmitted Color in the list of controls in right column
I'm obviously doing something wrong. Any idea what?
------------------
Here's what all the kind folk above are doing wrong.
You're accepting this interface as being normal and legitimate and investing time in learning it.
Somebody wants to tweak a color in a character, and in order to do that we have a long thread like this full of arcane techno-nerd talk. Collectively you guys have WAY more experience than I do, and you're still having to conduct an investigation and figure this out, so it's not just me. Tweak a color. Should be a 15 second job readily available to any newbie. And we still aren't done.
Would you learn Unix to post on this forum? Would you be helping Daz3D reach their goals if you accepted those terms? Or would you be helping Daz3D more by declining to learn Unix? Just saying, there's more than one way to look at this, imho.
Hi Dustrider, thanks for your post. Thanks to rames44 too.
Ok, here's where I am.
You should be able to scroll down to the proper section using the scroll bar on the right side of the surfaces pane?? (see attached - highlighted in yellow)
While I understand where your coming from, unfortunately I have to respectfully disagree. Your analogy is a bit like comparing apples and gorillas (OK so that's bad too, but don't too wrongs make a right
). An no, I'm not accepting the interface, if it was simpler, and I couldn't adjust the shaders the way I want to, I'd be done with DS.
I do get what you are saying. You feel that the interface should be so simple that the new user could simply bring up a window where there is an option like "Modify Skin Color", you click on it, and the software makes all of the appropriate changes for you. A simplified system like this might possibly be programmable, and I can see where many (most) people using DS might prefer it. But, AFAIK there is no 3D rendering software that currently has this type of overly simplified functionality. I would guess that it is because it would limit what the end user would be able to do a great deal. I think it's also good to note, that while editing the shaders may seem very complex and daunting in DS, DAZ has actually made it much simpler for the end user than if they had used the shader nodes interface for Iray
While I can see where an even more simplified system might be beneficial to some users, for me, if DAZ ever made it that simple, and didn't give me an easy way to get to the shaders for user modification like they have now, I would probably stop using DS. I seldom leave any of the shaders as they are "out of the box", as what the original artist thought was just right, I seldom find "just right". Different strokes for different folks
. But, until DAZ implements the "Make Art" button, learning a bit more about how and where to modify the shaders to your liking might really make it much easier to get what you want from a figure or prop, rather than what the original creator wanted (yes, I have been called a control freak).
Anyway, here's hoping we both see more useful features in future versions of DS that we both would like to see!!
I disagree. Every app has it's way of doing things, how it is programmed, how the user interface is set up. Just because you or someone else is used to a single user interface doesn't mean every other app has to share the same set up, that is ridiculous. I have used nearly every major modeling app there is and every one does things differently. I "get" 3DSMax, it makes total sense to me and I picked up it right away. I can't tell you how many times I have tried to "get" Blender and still have no clue on it, yet I don't expect it to conform to how Max does things, there are obviously a ton of other users that "get" Blender.
Honestly, tweaking a color is a 15 second job, I do it nearly every time I set up a scene. If you are unable to figure it out despite all the help that has been given, the issue isn't with how DS is set up. Doesn't matter what the app or the task, any newbie will have issues at first, that is a given, hence the term "newbie"
Here is an image if the surfaces of the default GF8. If you don't see a "transmitted color" option, it's probably because you didn't scroll down far enough, or you are using a skin that wasn't designed for Iray or one with special shader properties.
Hi Dustrider, thanks for your patience.
Well, I set it all up again from scratch, still don't see it. And not sure I care anymore honestly. Which brings us to the more interesting discussion...
A simplified user friendly system is surely programmable. I've been doing it for 25 years. I retired at age 45 by doing so. It's not an either/or thing. The current interface can be presented under a tab called "expert" and the simpler interface can be presented under a tab called "easy". Problem solved.
Yes, you got it, most people using free 3D software, or free software of any kind, are not experts. And don't want to be. Any interface in free software which ignores this group is not advanced, it's primitive. Like having to use Unix to post would be primitive.
I'm not suggesting that we should yell at Daz, for they have given us a wonderful gift. I'm only suggesting that we be clear minded and label primitive interfaces as being primitive. So long as the group consensus thinks this setup is advanced there is no incentive to upgrade it to serve the largest group of users.
Yes, I'll bet you're right, there probably is no 3D software which gets that for every expert there are 10,000 casual hobbyists. That's not because 3D software is advanced, that's because 3D culture doesn't yet get what's in it's own interest.
Anyway, blah, blah, blah, I type too much.
Yeah, I know it's programable (35 years in computer tech and IT, some programming, but more sys. admin, power user, and management type work), but I was giving a bit of slack because it could be a bit expensive for DAZ to implement. But then maybe it would attract more users too which would offset the cost.
Could you post a screen shot of what your seeing? Maybe there is something simple that we are all missing.
I am somewhat mystified when a programmer uses Unix as an example of employing a powerful and complex type of software to run an online forum such as this. I am not a programmer myself, but I know that Unix is an operating system, not a program or application, which is what the forums are based upon. As for powerful and complex being "primitive", I can't say that I would agree with that in principle. While I do accept that "user-friendliness" has become the halcyon cry of commercial software developers everywhere in an attempt to relive the glory days of the 1990's, that does not equate to progress in and of itself, in my book. Some things in life are complicated. Burying such complexity beneath layers of interface eventually leads to a multitude of demands on forums just like this for "a single button to do just what I want or need". Except that everyone has different needs and wants, and satisfying them all would require a whole lot of just-one-buttons. Which we already have. We should be educating ourselves and others, not trying to dummy everything up. That just leads to things like Twitter.
Hi SixDS,
Good point. I would agree that if Daz was a $3000 app for those working in the 3D industry then powerful and complex interface would not necessarily be a problem. If the average user of a software has the experience to understand the complex interface, then the complex interface is not an obstacle, and thus should not be labeled "primitive". To the degree I didn't make this clear in my comments, those posts were themselves a primitive interface.
I would include in the defintion of "Daz user" both those using Daz regularly, including generous experienced users like those posting above in this thread, AND all those folks who would have been Daz users except they became overwhelmed by the interface and quit, walking away never to be seen again. That is, we should count both the successes and failure of the interface to get the full picture.
Next, we might recall that the purpose of Daz software is to sell content in the DAZ3D store. Thus, every user who gives up on Daz software and then never buys anything in the DAZ3D store represents a failure of the software and associated instructional material. Arguments for a more accessible interface don't just serve users, they also serve DAZ3D. The more accessible the software interface is the more users there will be, and thus the more money DAZ3D makes. So, we should try to reframe such issues out of the "what Daz needs to do for the user" context, because it's really what DAZ3D might do in it's own interest.
Obviously, a great deal has already been done to make Daz accessible. If DAZ3D has no desire to grow it's business further, then what's been accomplished already can be fairly labeled good enough.
If DAZ3D does wish to build it's business further then they might look for guidance to the most successful developer, marketer and digital businessman the world has yet seen, Steve Jobs. In my view, one of the key elements of Job's success was his embrace of a state of chronic dissatisfaction. Job's didn't rationalize mediocrity, but instead took a "nothing is ever good enough" approach. This mindset made Jobs a kind of unpleasant person, but it did allow him to create the world's richest company.
Here's an example of where the 3D industry is going:
https://www.remove.bg/
The coders of that background removal software have taken a tedious task typically requiring somewhat advanced image software and made that task brain dead simple. They didn't say, "those whiny users need to get off their lazy butts and learn our complex interface". They didn't depend on the users to solve the problem, they solved it themselves.
In the future 3D art will have less and less to do with technology and more and more to do with art. Everything you're learning about 3D technology will become obsolete faster than you might imagine. Success will increasingly defined by whether we have anything interesting to say, and not by how handy one is in learning complex nerd operations.
Before someone slams down on the reply button to argue with this post, remember please that I suffer from EOD (Excessive Opinions Disease) and that it's not nice to make fun of disabled people.
I think this is a mistaken point. Daz was creating content long before Daz Studio. Even today you can see many people talking about using Daz content in other applications. Those quotes on the home page about Daz figures being used in Marvel movies weren't being rendered in Studio.
Studio gained it's prominence because it was free. Even compared to other hobbyist applications that was a lower price point. There are certainly other options out there which could use Daz content. Some of them are considered easier by some people to use. Personally, I don't like the interface for Poser or Blender or any others I have tried. I even have Maya available, but while I have used it for modeling new 3D models, I've never rendered using it. Studio fits my way of thinking when I create images.
There have been MUCH simpler applications in the past as well. Applications designed for specific uses like creating comic books. They failed in the end because inevitably the users start to want more flexibilty and power out of their application. And that comes at a cost in terms of ease of use.
You've used examples of image editing programs. I think you are still missing that 3D rendering engines are general purpose tools. Using the same tool I can create a "photorealistic" image of a person in a photo studio. Another can create a "toon" render of a spaceship in outer space. And another can create a line drawing of a landscape. 3D engines are simulating the interaction of lights and surfaces. The engine doesn't know that something is skin or metal or brick or water. It accepts parameters (shown in our surface settings) and uses those to simulate whatever surface we have defined. As an artist, I have the option to have a figure using a normal human skin or (with a few changes to parameters) making it look like she's made of water or stone or glass. If I were locked into "this is a human figure, therefore she must have skin" then I would be more limited in achieving the vision for an image.
Now, could someone write simpler ways to handle skin? Sure. In fact they have. The products that have been linked like Altern8, Ultimate Skin Manager and Skin Builder 8 attempt to do just that. It's always been part of Daz's model to use Studio to provide a base framework with as many bells and whisltles as they can and then leave it to 3rd parties to develop add-ons that simplify the process for people who want that. Just like Adobe doesn't build every possible filter and option into Photoshop, they allow plug-in vendors to fill those gaps. There are "click and render" options available. They just aren't bulit directly into Studio because that was never the design goal for the tool.
Daz leaves Studio users with the option to learn to do it themselves (for free) or to purchase an add-on to make their life easier. I honestly don't see that model changing anytime soon. And I know several vendors here who earnestly hope it never does. :)