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I still maintain and will maintain that (however it is/will be named) autoconversion and fitting tool/algorithms in DS should be improved and such morph fixers are limited and (for me: insufficient) partial solution.
Yeah, and while it is made by a different PA, I think the principle will be same with G2F.
Here is a mix of V5 (60%), Jasmin (60%) and Briallen Body (35%). First picture is without a fixer. The only fixer that exists is for V5 (V5 Default Smooth in this case, because no other standard breast morphs were used) and it doesn't make all that much of the difference at related 60% - it is slightly better but still the fabric clings to the breasts in a way it shouldn't. Jasmin and Briallen are both custom 3rd party morphs that sold through DAZ3D but the fixer has nothing for them.
Third picture is a very quick morph made in ZBrush, which still, as I think, gives better results.
I think the point that HoF is making that you're missing is that any type of universal auto-conversion tool is going to be, at best, a limited and partial solution. Any such tool is going to have to make certain best guess assumptions and work from there.
My experience with auto-conversion tools is primarily working with databases. Any time you have to migrate data from one system to another - many times even a new version of the current system - you run up against the 80/20 rule. About 80% of your data will move with no issues but the remaining 20% - usually the more esoteric parts of the system - will require some sort of user intervention. So in essence you spend 80% of your time getting 20% of your data moved correctly.
I see the current auto-fit tool in much the same way. For 80% of the conversion it works just fine but that remaining 20% needs user intervention. This new tool is something that helps with that remaining 20% but it still doesn't fix everything perfectly. Still the combination of the current auto-fit and these types of tools mean I only have to spend a few hours tweaking the content I've already invested in instead of spending either days to re-create something from scratch or having to buy all new content.
And if I just can't make something for Genesis or V4 work on G2F using these tools, well, I can still just use my Genesis or V4 figures.
I would like to see improvements to Auto-fit but I understand why it might not be a high priority for Daz right now. I'm just happy it works and that we have talented PA's like SickleYield to create tools to fill in the blanks.
Personally, I'd be pretty upset if I couldn't get better results from a $700 tool than I can get from a $20 one.
And yes I know that someone will say they can get similar results from Blender which is free. They might be able to but I can't. Blender's UI and I just don't get along.
Personally, I'd be pretty upset if I couldn't get better results from a $700 tool than I can get from a $20 one.
I made it very fast and crude, without paying much attention to details and I still think it is better than fixes that fixer provides.
Btw ZBrush cost me about $420, I think. It was way back.
I have, but it's not all been positive. I think if I was to move on from Daz Studio it would be to Blender.
Well of course not. It ain't 3DS or C4D, but then it can use poser content and genesis right out of the box. It may not have the Studio specific tools Studio has{to work on genesis}, but then I've always said Studio is a great support app for Carrara ;)
Carrara 8.5 can use content as well as, and in many cases better then Studio {plus being designed to work with most other mesh formats}. And you don't have to give anything up moving up. One of the things I enjoy doing is running dynamic clothing sims in Studio then staging and rendering in carrara. I used to use the figure set up tools in DS3 a lot, but I haven't worked with the new tools for genesis/weightmapping. I've done weightmapping in carrara but that is a horse of a different breed. None the less, you can do all you character prep work in Studio, then save and finish staging the scene in carrara. And I love staging lol
Think about this, I couldn't care less if autofit works in Studio, as long as it works in carrara, which it does; and as well as Studio lol
Which brings us back to the issue at hand. Any chance we could get a mod or dev to give us some info about what is being developed, going on, being fixed in autofit?
http://www.daz3d.com/software/hexagon
Yeah, and while it is made by a different PA, I think the principle will be same with G2F.
Here is a mix of V5 (60%), Jasmin (60%) and Briallen Body (35%). First picture is without a fixer. The only fixer that exists is for V5 (V5 Default Smooth in this case, because no other standard breast morphs were used) and it doesn't make all that much of the difference at related 60% - it is slightly better but still the fabric clings to the breasts in a way it shouldn't. Jasmin and Briallen are both custom 3rd party morphs that sold through DAZ3D but the fixer has nothing for them.
Third picture is a very quick morph made in ZBrush, which still, as I think, gives better results.
...I've been confounded by this and found it particularly distressing with the YT5 figures. Either I have to turn the smoothing off (which often results in pokethrough), or find some other means to not get the "sprayed on" looking fit.
As a fair number of us don't have the incomes to support the purchase of an app like ZBursh, but we still need something that works. I decided to sit down and learn Blender not only because it is more stable than Hexagon, but as it also includes sculpting tools. The sad thing is there is no Daz-Blender bridge to easily transfer between the two apps. Another nice low cost option would be Silo (which I have considered especially since it is currently on sale), but again there is no simple way to transfer meshes between it and Daz..
I really wish that Daz would consider and implement supporting more "affordable" third party apps instead of just the expensive pro grade ones. That would be a big step in the right direction for us "advanced" hobbyists who would like to do something more, but don't have the deep pockets.
...and this is relevant to the discussion as we are also talking here about using third party apps to perform the necessary fixes, particularly as Kattey points out here, when using combinations of different models/characters (which is one of the major benefits of the Genesis platform in the first place) where a fix for one does little or nothing for the other.
I am curious about the sports bra and bra morph. Are there any examples of how this looks?
I could use a bra morph if it really does resemble a character wearing a bra.
Isn't the whole point of G2F that all the different characters will be based on the female shape, so a morph that provides fixes for that shape should work to some extent with any other female shape?
Regarding modeling software to create fix morphs, Blacksmith3D has a nice smoothing feature, and I've gotten used to exporting obj, tweaking, then importing as a morph of the original. But an enhancement to DFormers in DS to implement smoothing would be helpful....
If Blender could import Genesis, or even V4 etc. with rigging intact and could conform imported clothing, I'd make learning it a much higher priority.
Personally, I'd be pretty upset if I couldn't get better results from a $700 tool than I can get from a $20 one.
I've used Sculptris and Hexagon to do the same. I don't have Zbrush. Zbrush is just one option.
I've used Sculptris and Hexagon to do the same. I don't have Zbrush. Zbrush is just one option.
I think no matter what tool you use, a custom-made adjustment for your particular mix is likely to be better than a general-purpose fix not made for that particular mix. How does that fix work on 50 different morphs?
""I have, but it’s not all been positive. I think if I was to move on from Daz Studio it would be to Blender.""
ZBrush and C4D for me.
Dude, you must be absolutely loaded...
but I’ve tried so many freeware tools that have issues for one reason or another, I can’t get past blenders UI for the life of me.
Really? I'm actually trying out Blender now (been meaning to for months). Only spent 2-3 days total messing with it and referring to Blenderwiki, and I'm starting to get the hang of the UI (FINALLY figured out how to open files-- just haven't figured out how to add a second model to a scene or start a new scene and open a model afterwards) Then again, UIs haven't been a problem for me once I get used to them (although I hate DAZ's dockable windows though because they dock to easily when you move them around, and they require so much screen cover, so it's ungainly to have more than one open at a time, which bugs the hell out of me)
And while we're talking about autofit, am I the only person with a problem with ALL tops (dresses, shirts, etc) getting a wrinkly collapsed area on the underboob area for BOTH male and female clothes? How do I prevent or get rid of it? (Yes, yes, I plan to purchase the Sy trigging system as soon as it comes on sale again... I missed the 60% off sale last month, waah...)
3) If this were an autofit ‘feature’ there would be no variable control as there is with these morphs. It would be one fit for all, which still wouldn’t please everyone. This way can make it as figure hugging or as loose as you please, and in my opinion that makes it worth the asking price alone.
Please stop repeating this. Only ONE person has voiced desire for an auto/default-anti-cling algorhythm. Chances are everyone else here wants autofit to allow them to choose one or the other and everything in-between. I know I do.
...my frustration is not with the PA’s, it is with Daz deciding to wash their hands of support for the older figures completely with regards to their new product and thus making this far much more expensive to stay current with.
Same here. Most PA's on DAZ are nice and very generous about this type of thing. Some will bundle their fixes with say-- the Genesis 2 version of their product, but most will give free updates to anyone who purchased the product. Hell, I got an email notification from Zev0 that Faceweight was updated for 4.6 compatibility, and I didn't even use the DIM for that product! (II've heard a lot of people say that's the only way you'll get update notifications for purchased products)
Because V4 was so successful, and there is so much clothing created for her both here and in other stores. The fact her UV is not only used for all Gen4 female characters but several Genesis characters as well, something was needed. Will the same happen for say Hiro3? Kids4? Hard to say, and this is just one reason why I am concerned as well as frustrated with Daz’s current marketing strategy.
Unlikely. Michael 4 is the most likely if any, since he's the second most popular. I agree with what people have said in other threads that DAZ is making a big mistake by going the "Poser Route" as I call it, and creating next-gen characters who only work natively with their software. Just because Poser has ALWAYS done this doesn't mean it's a good idea. Esp. when you look at the history of freebies-- there's a massive dropoff in freebie support after Posette, and the dropoff is at its sharpest with the P7 generation and later (which, correct me if I'm wrong, is when V4 was released)
Having to purchase more to make something work which needed less in the past is what many of us here are frustrated with. That is on Daz’s shoulders as they are the ones calling the marketing shots.
Yeah, that's been greatly frustrating me as well. I didn't know that PA content was getting this bad. Are ol goodies like Elven Warrior still 2.99, or are strings attached to those now as well?
Is it really that V4 is the most successful, or just that long time poser users either can’t or don’t wish to use DSON?
Partly the latter.
One brief waltz around competitors forums suggests that the majority still idolizing V4 tend to be Poser users, with the occasional user of Daz Studio 3 or below.
Bingo. However, I do not use Poser, so I have no idea how accurately the DSON importer functions. However, the general sentiment among Poser-only users seems to be rather sour, as they seem to feel as though DAZ is trying to force them to use their software instead of Poser. I know it's not the fact that the DSON Importer costs $$$, as it's a measly 10 bucks. I've also seen sentiment that DAZ is becoming a monopoly. I'm not really sure where they're coming from on this, except that the Gen 5 characters seem to fuel this sentiment a lot.
Yes really, otherwise I wouldn't have said so. *rolls eyes* When you are experienced with 3D programs I'm not sure you should need to dedicate 3 days just to get past the UI to do something simple. Unless the UI is so bad your forcing it.
I don't force anything, ruins my creativity (and 3 days is an unnecessary waste of time from my experience). That said I found some good software, with great UI, but they also had their own issues. So it's an unfortunate part of the game.
But really? Really? Yes really.
EDIT: And for the record, I've had various releases of Blender installed for the last 2 years. I try here and there and always end up gagging. Some tools are not for everyone, no need to challenge that. Some artists are good with charcoal, some are good with oil. Some prioritize free over all, others want tools they vibe with even if they cost something.
I know how I like to work and I levitate toward software that works how I feel it should. Sculptris for example was a surprising find for me, and I hated working in clay in the real world! Sculptris works well for certain tasks and not for all. But only took about 5 minutes to see its value. Good stuff doesn't require days of effort if you know what you are looking for. At least not for me.
Easy to use, but tough to master is OK for me. Tough to use is not going to work for me. (and again, the reason software works so differently from one another is because people work differently, so what is a pain to one, is a pleasure to another)
Wait until you play with Meshlab.
Here is a program that will perform just about any function needed to build a model. Good luck getting past the user interface.
The only think I use it for is when I need to decimate a model. It beats Hexagon's decimation hands down. Of course it took me several minutes to figure out how the heck it worked.
Speaking of user interfaces, if you're working on a dual monitor system can you move all the dockable windows to the second monitor and use them from there?
Yes really, otherwise I wouldn't have said so. *rolls eyes* When you are experienced with 3D programs I'm not sure you should need to dedicate 3 days just to get past the UI to do something simple. Unless the UI is so bad your forcing it.
I've been there right next to you. I've picked up Blender and uninstalled it so many times over the last 10+ years or so, you couldn't pay me enough to use it. Finally, I decided to give it another go recently when I'd seen they overhauled the interface, I'll say the new one is much better (but can still be confusing, I'll admit, but it's better than the 2.4 interface *shudder*).
What I did was watch BlenderCookie's Blender Basics series to familiarize myself with the new interface.
http://cgcookie.com/blender/cgc-courses/blender-basics-introduction-for-beginners/
I can finally bring in Genesis, export it, and get working morphs in DS. Once I learned some hotkeys like scaling, loop selection, the left/right panel pullouts, etc things are starting to get a little smoother (I've also recently learned about vertex groups and selecting vertices via the materials panel thanks to some kind souls around here).
My next mission is cloth simulation. I just watched a tutorial on BlenderCookie (notice a pattern here? lol) that makes it look easy as pie.
http://cgcookie.com/blender/2013/03/12/modeling-with-cloth-simulation-in-blender/
I open up Hexagon and feel like I've been transported to Mars, but a lot of people around here seem to swear by it.
I'm in no way saying your feelings are any less valid, I'm only saying it's possible and to give you some hope if/when you ever felt like giving Blender another go. :)
If you mean for Hexagon, then yes.
I always end up giving it another look because so many people swear by it. I hope over hope that someone gives it a better UI. It still looks like a hot mess that's taking up too much space, and a program that wasn't natively designed for windows.
right now I'm too focused on getting stuff done, and enjoying being creative. So I'm using stuff that works and allows me to get things done without starting from scratch. When I hit a hump with hexagon that forces me to stop using it I'll just go back to Silo2. I actually dig Silo2 outside it's bugs...But as far as needing to learn an interface or shortcuts I don't have to do that in Silo2, I can just use it. I don't need to waste time with some beginner tutorials cause Silo2 just makes sense. Occasionally I need to search to figure out how to do X, but that's ok. I don't waste time with "how to navigate the program tutorials". If I can't figure that out myself it's not designed right. Tutorials for specific tasks make sense to me, but not how to rotate in 3D space or how to save. Can't programs just use the windows built in dialog to save?
And yes, Silo2 has its own bugs that suck. It's not supported anymore, etc etc. But didn't need to watch a tutorial to pan the camera.
I've only used silo2 a few hours max, but it just works.
And when that doesn't work I'll try Blender again, so in 6+ months anything is possible.
I don't fault people for using Blender, I'm just surprised that some folk are shocked others don't like it even though they've given it a fair chance many times.
edited 1 million times for various reasons.
...I tend to swear at it a lot when it freezes up after about eight to ten minutes or when I keep getting warnings that using the smoothing option would result in the app becoming unstable. That is why I returned to learning Blender.
...and I actually paid 55$ for Hexagon five years ago.
ROFL, nice one, deffo lots of swearing either way!
Swear by Hex when adjust existing mesh (sculpting/poly pushing and mostly quite stable)
Swear at Hex when creating a mesh (always weird anomalies and lots of crashes)
Ditto that Bro!
My buying spree has been fading and the Gen 2 FB release finally made me realize the marketing magic at play here.
I've stopped complaining about questionable releases or corrections/upgrades that never will appear. Today I look at them as market opportunities instead ;)
But with Hex you can do something you can't do with any other app out side of Zbrush. Send your breast tucked blouse out to be fixed. With the Hex bridge it is easy enough to send to Hex, and use the softening tool to smooth out the tuck, then send it back to Studio to be turned in to a morph. I've done this sort of stuff before studio 4 when I needed to do fit morphs for clothes. But here lately I have been wrapped up in using studio's dynamic clothing sims in carrara, so most of my time in studio has been trying to get a usable animation; so far everyone has had one issue or another with the dynamic clothing in studio. They come though to carrara in DUF fine; errors, issues and all lol
Thing is, I have to have these issues fixed in studio because I can't fix them in carrara.
C4D has those tools. I'm pretty sure Blender has smoothing scupturing tools too. They (and all other programs) lack DS bridges, which makes them more pain in loops to use, but most of other programs can do smoothing. Heck, I think Wings3D can do smoothing.
I use Silo and I can do smoothing easily. No bridge but that is just a minor problem.
It would be nice if Silo had some bridges. They talked about doing them before they went on hiatus.
Yeah for me the bridge is a big time saver honestly. One of the reasons i use hexagon. For a quick fix it is the fastest option.
Using obj as a middleman is tedious and often has its own issues.
Does the Hexagon Bridge work on the Mac yet? As it happens, I'm using a PC at the moment, but that was one of the reasons I gave up on Hexagon.
C4D has those tools. I'm pretty sure Blender has smoothing scupturing tools too. They (and all other programs) lack DS bridges, which makes them more pain in loops to use, but most of other programs can do smoothing. Heck, I think Wings3D can do smoothing.
...I so much as have to just think about using smoothing in Hexagon and up pops a warning that the application will become unstable and have to shut own. What good is a bridge to an app that can't even support one of it's basic functions without crashing?
...I would seriously consider getting Silo if that happened. Right now it's only 109$.
...I would seriously consider getting Silo if that happened. Right now it's only 109$.
On steam it's $60 and I know it was $30 once. If you hate steam well, that's an issue. I know some people dislike it a lot. I don't have issues with it myself.
Would be nice if hexagon could work with meshes that were textured...Hexagon works with smoothing and such for me OK as long as I take off the textures before i send it over in the bridge.